Scottish-Sr and his black bonnet.

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Dusk

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Not ripping into anyone but ive had a bit of a situation.

I just sold my black bonnet to Scottish-sr, and he arranged a courier to pick it up from my friends house. I inspected the bonnet previously and we put it on my car to take some pictures - these were placed on the ad for me selling the bonnet. The courier came picked it up, dropped it off at destination. Whos responsible if the courier breaks the item?

Bear in mind that it had a considerable ammount of cellophane and cardboard edging, courtesy of my friend - but assumed that a final wrapping of it would have been done by the courier - as the courier has been arranged by scottish-sr.

He would now like me to refund him the cost of the bonnet, although he will have paid courier fees both ways i will then receive a broken bonnet.

I cannot re-sell the bonnet due to the damage - so what now - do i just say sorry to scottish-sr for the courier that was nothing to do with me, and lose £100 of my own money AND a badboy bonnet. Or should it be up to him to re-claim damage costs from the courier service that HE arranged.

He also mentions that the underside of the bonnet was white - this was due to the bonnet originally being white - does that entitle him to a full refund and for me to lose my bonnet through no fault of my own because of the above?

As i said above - im not being "the bad guy"...
 
if this happend to me (i was the seller) i would say i cant do anything,as you arranged the pick up and have seen the bonnet before you payed.

edit:if i arranged pick up i would try get intouch with the firm and see what can be done
 
whoever arranged a courier should have used someone who offered insurance really. He should try and recover the money first... its a sticky situation :s
 
hard 1 to call mate to be honest there the courier should make sure the item he is delivering gets there in time and in perfect condition so that should be the courier that is to blame i would say!! do you not get insurance yu can take out for like £5 so you dont have that situation?? hard one to call tho!!

just hope you wo get it sorted and come to a fair agreement

fraz:kungfu:
 
well i wouldn't call it ur fault... or his...

as he arranged the curiour its HIS responsibility..

his next objective is to not to try and rip you off... but to claim his damage off the curior...

YOU DUSK.. said in your original ADVERT for the bonnet that you would much prefer collection.... the use of a curior was down to him..
 
Yeah, after all I did prefer for it to be picked up..
I will direct him to this post when he returns.
 
again something should really be made clear about this but in my honest opinion there should be no refund from the seller as the buyer arranged collection however i understand from buyers POV that hes bought damaged goods (not on part of seller)

if it was me i would contact the courier n sort it out with them although if there was no insurance i dont know where you would stand.

maybes a bit of a comprimise would be due, a dont think refund 100% is the answer though, a know if a sold summit n the buyer arranged pickup/collection thats there responsibilty not mine n a wouldnt refuns them
 
also, one more point am willing to add to this discussion is said buyer was quite happy to keep it and so set up a poll to see weather or not he should keep it black or red but now that said poll has majority vote red and its black said buyer wants a said refund? thats just not saiding on
 
The metal plate which was welded over the brow, then fibreglassed and fillered - that is the damage. It must have been bashed about a fair deal by the couriers imo.. I dont know if it is repairable, i should imagine so - its not that hard to do in the first place - it depends where it has been bent. It was a bodyshop that did the work however. And although i have seen the pictures of the brow piece being disfigured somehow - i cant really make the picture out as its abit small.
 
At the end of the day its not your fault, the guy should take it up with the carrier company or if you wanted just refund half the money.
 
The courier WILL have some form of damage during transit insurance.

Its up to scottish-sr to initiate it, and its up to you to support him and be completelty adamant that it was sent in 100% perfect condition.

You should have taken a picture of it ust before you packaged it up showing a current, daily newspaper clearly showing that at xxxx date before it was sent the bonnet was 100% undamaged.

Goodluck with it. If they dont want to honour the insurance, just kick up a bigger fuss. :)
 
Ive no beef with Scottish but as unanimously agreed this is in no way shape or form your fault, tho in future you should charge more and package it yourself if possible to an even better standard.. ...
HOWEVER
i totally dissaprove of you not telling him the underside of the bonnet was white .. Scot had a right to know if the bonnet was not normal(same color both sides - as is always the case!) and you can be blamed for not making that clear
Verdict:honourable thing to do would be to give him a full refund becos you sold him a product wich did not match the product description (required under the product descriptions act)however this is highly unlikely so you should pay him say £20-£30 as a token for your apology or compensation.....

cos i think he wud have still used the bonnet regardless of the white underside had it reached him in order
 
RAJA said:
Ive no beef with Scottish but as unanimously agreed this is in no way shape or form your fault, tho in future you should charge more and package it yourself if possible to an even better standard.. ...
HOWEVER
i totally dissaprove of you not telling him the underside of the bonnet was white .. Scot had a right to know if the bonnet was not normal(same color both sides - as is always the case!) and you can be blamed for not making that clear
Verdict:honourable thing to do would be to give him a full refund becos you sold him a product wich did not match the product description (required under the product descriptions act)however this is highly unlikely so you should pay him say £20-£30 as a token for your apology or compensation.....

cos i think he wud have still used the bonnet regardless of the white underside had it reached him in order
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agree and disagree with this comment, it should have been made completely clear that the bonnet was white on the underneath but i wouldnt say at all that the honerable thing to do would give a full refund, thats madness
 
yea a little bit of a piece offering i would say, it is really a hard thing tho everyone will have a diff point of veiw
 
this is why PM and email were invented guys. this is a problem between you and chris, and does not require the entire msc to join in.
 
for what reason? its a personal matter, if it needs impartial input, a public forum is not the place to get it from
 
I wanted people who knew what the situation was, and as a community i thought i may ask the public what there views on it so we could come to a reasonable conclusion.
Obviously I diddnt expect the rationality police to come and stop me posting in "general chat" about "general things" - Perhaps you could direct me to some forums where i could ask people about my situation - without them saying "we dont CARE who the buyer is.. so you dont owe him anything"
 
Yes Dusk, I agree with Layla, this is between me and you. Earlier on, when I spoke to you on MSN you informed me it was no problem and I could send the bonnet back for a full refund. So whats changed?

What he also doesnt say is that I visited a bodyshop regarding the bonnet to see about a repair, as soon as I brought the bonnet out he laughed as he described the work done on it by amatuers.

Also the general condition of the bonnet on the underside was poor with rust peeling off. The bonnet was not described to me accurately.

It is also the sellers responsibility to package the item properly. All it came in was basically cling film with a few bits of foam down the side, the bodyshop also mentioned on this aswell.

Yes, I did arrange the courier, but I was simply trying to do one less thing for Dusk to do, and all it involved was filling in two addresses and paying for it. And seeing as I was paying for postage anyway, I thought it would be a good idea to arrange it myself.

Here is a quote from Dusk of the thread where the bonnet was sold Can Be Found Here

Dusk said:
Well, personally id rarther sell it local, because id get more for it.. because people in the manc area would rarther spend £100 as much as id like £100 in my hand. Weras if you were to buy it, for £100 id only see £80.

If i dont see £100 in my hand when the bonnet is sold then i dont think id sell it tbh..
Click to expand...

Yes he does say he would prefer to sell it local, but not due to postage, just that he would get more for it.

The reason I asked for a refund was 1)Due to the damage incurred by poor packing and 2)Due to the bonnet not being described to me accurately.

Also to the guy who said I would have probably used it with the underside white, I would not have, this would have had to been painted as I plan on showing the car and it would look extremely daft lifting up the bonnet to show the engine with the underside of the bonnet being all tatty and bits of white here and there.

On MSN earlier you were more than happy to oblige and send me a refund, and told me I would get this during the weekend.

So if you decide to back out, I am left £100 out of pocket for a bonnet that was damaged due to poor packing.
 
What has changed is the input i have recieved from members on the forum after i posted this.

The bonnets brows were done by a bodyshop - since i am not a bodyshop worker then i am unable to judge how good the job was and wouldnt go around asking other bodyshops how good my brows were done.
(funny, because kristians and my wide arch kits were done at the same place)

My final decision is that i wont be offering Scottish-Sr a refund.
He offered to post me back my bonnet and for me to refund him the £100.
Unfortunatly I wont be taking him up on this offer, Im sure no-one here would appricate there bonnet to be shipped around the country and returned to them damaged and in an un-usable state - and possibly get charged for doing so.
If postal insurance was taken out - or the package wasnt signed for before checking the condition of the item - then the situation could have been resolved.

The courier wasnt ordered by me to safely deliver the parcel to his house, if that was the case - it would be my fault, and i would take it up with the courier company or offer a refund.

Unfortunatly since the courier was ordered by HIM to safely courier the parcel from "X location" to his house, then it is HIS responsiblity to ensure it gets to him safely, NOT mine.

This thread can either be locked or deleted - since neither of us wish now to discuss it any further than on msn.

Thanks for everyones input.
 
WTF?

You can't open the package to inspect it until you sign for it. By the sounds of it there was no visible damage to the packaging, so how was scottish_sr to know that it had been damaged in transport?

I still insist that if you two hug, kiss and make-up you can go to the courier you hired to transport the item. If they don't want to help you, threaten to kick up a ####fight with your countrie's relevant authorities AND the media. I have no doubt you lot have various "current affair" tv shows which basically feature people with these sort of problems having a ##### about it. These programs are HIGHLY effective with getting what you want. The company doesn't want to look bad infront of the country (audience).

PS: if the uK is anything like australia, if you're buying privately you really have no protection against mis-advertised goods. You can go to the police here and complain about it but the most the police can do is ask the seller a few questions, and if they incriminate themsevles then you've got police proof they lied to you and its within their best interests to refund the item BEFORE you take them to small claims.

I'd hate to see you two get into a court battle because they'r expensive and one of you are going to lose the case, and along with that you'll lose a fair whack of your dignity AND your money.
 
I notice reading this now I am not tired that alot of people seem to be focusing on the point regarding postage. They havent considered the bonnet was not as described.

I was not told the underside of the bonnet was white, I would have had to get this resprayed regardless of damage.

I would like to draw your attention to this.

• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
Click to expand...

• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.
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• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)
Click to expand...

• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.
Click to expand...

These extracts are taken from the Sales of Goods act, and can be found Here

If Im reading it correctly then the product has to be described correctly, as it was not to me, I am entitled to a refund as it is not fit for purpose.

This is also covered in the Distance Sales Act, which can be found Here

Key features of the regulations:

* the consumer must be given clear information about the goods or services offered
* after making a purchase the consumer must be sent confirmation
* consumer has a cooling-off period of 7 working days
* new powers for local Trading Standards Departments and the OFT
Click to expand...
 
scottish-sr said:
I would like to draw your attention to this.

These extracts are taken from the Sales of Goods act, and can be found Here
Here
Click to expand...

thats only if you want to take it further,,and you didnt do this so you cant.

in other words,no contract no argument
 
its a nasty situation. even if the item is not as described, once is been signed for (as stupid as it is) i think there is nothing you can do.

been in this situation a few times before :(

good luck sorting it out (both of you)
 
I agree with both on this one but 100% agree with Layla this was a private matter and shouldnt have been discussed in a public forum after all we dont know the condition of the bonnet so who are we to say whether Scottish-sr should be refunded or not...if goods arnt as described then I'm sorry damaged in transit or not I would want a refund. But the damage was the couriers responsibilty so I suggest claim off them for damage and give it Dusk and dusk refund his money back you can use the money from the courier to repair the bonnet and sell it to some 1 else :p thats just my veiw lol
 
I just want to add my 0.02p and draw attention to a quote from the very first post:

Dusk said:
Bear in mind that it had a considerable ammount of cellophane and cardboard edging, courtesy of my friend - but assumed that a final wrapping of it would have been done by the courier - as the courier has been arranged by scottish-sr.
Click to expand...

Now in all my time using couriers both from home and in the workplace I have never known a Courier to come to the pick-up point and then 're-wrap' a package to their specification. Dusk has said he assumed that this would have been the case, but if Dusk wasn't 100% sure that the job he took on of packing the bonnet was good enough then he should have asked the courier directly or asked Scottish-SR to find out.

As for the goods arriving not as described, that instantly shouts a refund to me im afraid.
 
rlees85 said:
its a nasty situation. even if the item is not as described, once is been signed for (as stupid as it is) i think there is nothing you can do.

been in this situation a few times before :(

good luck sorting it out (both of you)
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Yes, but I did not find this out until it had been un-wrapped. The package not being described has nothing to do with the courier.


thekore said:
I just want to add my 0.02p and draw attention to a quote from the very first post:

Now in all my time using couriers both from home and in the workplace I have never known a Courier to come to the pick-up point and then 're-wrap' a package to their specification.
Click to expand...

Well done on pointing that out mate, I never noticed it. I have never heard of a courier coming to re-wrap an item.
 
who was it sent with? i think you 2 should try claim off the courior and sort it that way, if they broke it they should fix it.
 
Dr Zoidberg said:
who was it sent with? i think you 2 should try claim off the courior and sort it that way, if they broke it they should fix it.
Click to expand...

www.postvan.com/uk I have had numerous things sent by them and including seats and even windows, and they all arrived intact as they were packaged well.
 
i've used them and they damaged the goods i sent, i'd try claim off them as i think others may have had stuff damaged.
 
yes but bonets are fragile things.......if you wrapped an egg up "right" it would still arive smashed.

the driver doesnt care,he has to empty his van before the end of the day so he can go home to his missus and his tea.hes not going to take his time handling these things (evenb tho he should)
 
Dr Zoidberg said:
nah, it was easily fixed. it was the seats i sent allan.

would have if allan wanted to tho
Click to expand...

Yeah, he told me about that. It was easy enough to bend it back to shape he said. Isnt as easy to paint a bonnet and get it looking good though myself.
 
i know but if you claim you can say that we had damaged goods, doesn't look good for a company if a few people winge, they might compensate you.
 
I deal with 'Initial City Link couriers' at work a fair bit, and it is the sellers responsibility to make sure an item is properly packaged. The Courier will never wrap an item themselves, otherwise they would never have time to do deliveries.

Although the damage of the bonnet is no ones fault intentionally, it is one of those unlucky things that can happen.

However a small refund should be made due to the false description of the bonnet. (white on the underside)
 
Scottish-Sr can I just ask why did you do the pole..shouldnt this have came to light earlier?
 
Gemma85 said:
Scottish-Sr can I just ask why did you do the pole..shouldnt this have came to light earlier?
Click to expand...

I done the poll as I was planing to get the bonnet fixed by a respray, so wanted to find out what peoples opinions were on what colour to pick.

But when I got to the bodyshop and got told how much it would be for both sides to be done I decided against this.
 
scottish-sr said:
I done the poll as I was planing to get the bonnet fixed by a respray, so wanted to find out what peoples opinions were on what colour to pick.

But when I got to the bodyshop and got told how much it would be for both sides to be done I decided against this.
Click to expand...


Fair enough just had to ask..hope this gets sorted x
 
Firstly 2 points I will raise that dusk is at fault with.

1. Bonnet was not properly described...........fact.

2. Bonnet was poorly wrapped...........fact.
- Whether the courier was arranged by the seller or buyer, the seller will always wrap the package. Only one courier I know of will collect and wrap, which is Pickfords and there costs are huge. Standard practice is for the seller to wrap the item.

My points to Scottish Sr.

1. Did you sign for the package un-damaged? i.e no note on the form to say it was damaged. In every instance of accepting packages from a courier, you make the courier wait until you have inspected the package and then sign accordingly.

2. Was the damage visiable from the outer packaging?

3. I would assume that by arranging a courier there is some form of compensation that would be standard anyway, you should really look into this.

Oh and by the way the trade description does fully apply here and there is a form of a contract, so what Scottish Sr quoted is very relevant.

Putting all that aside....dusk should offer a full refund mainly for the in-proper description and poor packaging. The bonnet was not described fully and everything that happened after that point is immaterial. If the bonnet was properly described then this would be a different matter entirely.

Kev
 
So a full refund would be required due to the bonnet being white on the underside? AND i should be left without a bonnet? Somehow - i dont think so unfortunatly, sorry.

(we all know he would have no problems if the parcel that he arranged to be picked up was perfect on delivery - also i dont even LIVE at the place i told him to pick it up from - and he knows this)
 
you sold an item that was NOT fully described, so the buyer is due a full refund regardless of the damage to the bonnet and what occured after the sale.

Do you think he put a black bonnet on a red car with a white underside........I think not.
 
Kev said:
Firstly 2 points I will raise that dusk is at fault with.

1. Bonnet was not properly described...........fact.

2. Bonnet was poorly wrapped...........fact.
- Whether the courier was arranged by the seller or buyer, the seller will always wrap the package. Only one courier I know of will collect and wrap, which is Pickfords and there costs are huge. Standard practice is for the seller to wrap the item.

My points to Scottish Sr.

1. Did you sign for the package un-damaged? i.e no note on the form to say it was damaged. In every instance of accepting packages from a courier, you make the courier wait until you have inspected the package and then sign accordingly.

2. Was the damage visiable from the outer packaging?

3. I would assume that by arranging a courier there is some form of compensation that would be standard anyway, you should really look into this.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input Kev. In regard to your points.

1)I did sign for the package un-damaged, there was nothing on the form to say it was.

2)The damage was not visible through the packaging. The clinf-film material was wrapped over it in a good few layers.

3)I phoned the courier companies claim line and they said e-mail them, which I have done. Although I doubt I will get a reply.

Kev said:
Do you think he put a black bonnet on a red car with a white underside........I think not.
Click to expand...

Kev is 100% spot on here... If I had known the bonnet was white on the underside, I would not have bought it as it would probably have cost another £50-100 to get sprayed.

One of the reasons I bought the bonnet was to go well with the black wheels I will hopefully be getting for showing the car at the Fast & Modified show where the MSC is hopefully going to have a stand. If I was showing off the engine bay, it would look completely daft.

Dusk said:
So a full refund would be required due to the bonnet being white on the underside? AND i should be left without a bonnet?

(we all know he would have no problems if the parcel that he arranged to be picked up was perfect on delivery
Click to expand...

I also said I would post the bonnet back at my own expense, so I would be left about £30 out of pocket anyway if I get a refund. And as said above, even if the bonnet did arrive perfect, I would have wanted a refund or the costs covered to get the underside painted.

After all, the advert was for a "Black Badboy Bonnet" not "Have Black, Half White Badboy Bonnet"
 
Well, if you get a refund - you will be down £30 which is alot more than i would have been if you returned it to me.

Perhaps over-declare the value if you can to re-coup your costs.

At the end of the day if the parcel you got delivered to yourself came in one piece you would have put it on your car nomatter what colour the underside was, the fact that it is now damaged is an excuse for you to "not want" the bonnet, this is also shown in the thread you ask for peoples opinions. Since you have been offered a cheaper quote by your bodyshop to do it to your current bonnet rarther than fix the old one of COURSE you want to send it back, because you have decided now that you dont want it. And that you can get it done cheaper to your own.

Well, *I* dont want it back; it was a perfectly good bonnet and it has been ruined, fair enough if i refunded you then yould be down £30, but i would be down £100 - the bonnets worth.

Id also like to point out that *I* was quite busy over the time you wished to purchace the bonnet, and was away from my computer for quite a long time. In that time YOU personally arranged to have it collected from my friends house *I* never actually TOLD you that you could pick it up OR a time OR a place - this was done through someone else. I sat down at my computer - you had paypalled me the money - and then was sent a txt that you will be picking it up the following morning.

Perhaps i could courier you a tin of black spraypaint for the underside? Out of my own pocket?
 
I've tried not to post because I am the friend mentioned, but need to state a few things.

Firstly, scotishSR said to me that he was happy with the packaging, I personally wrap palettes full of LCD and Plasma screens every week so I used stuff from work, do not say you weren't happy because you are lying!

You also said you did not care about making the guy wait and you would open it before signing, again you did not.

Ok, being white underneath, wasn't mentioned, even I will apologise for that, I forgot about it myself.

We all know the trouble couriers cause from a similar experience on MSC not too long ago, Dusk did say he wanted to sell local, kristian wanted but because Scottish SR was first in line and stated he would pay £100 and sort the courier himself Dusk decided to go ahead with that agreed transaction.

I'm not going to throw my opinions in but why did you start a poll about colour you want after you paid, to me that thread seems to have changed your mind about wanting the bonnet.

The comments about the quality are just his say so, the place Dusk used may have done differently but I don't see how many ways there are, it's sheet metal welded on, shaped and filler to sort, just because another shop says it's poor quality is no reason for return, it is a badboy bonnet that does what is required.

I hope this gets sorted, all I can say is dusk, myself and my brother did our best at packaging, the couriers was not in our control and they have caused the damage.
 
Dusk said:
At the end of the day if the parcel you got delivered to yourself came in one piece you would have put it on your car nomatter what colour the underside was, the fact that it is now damaged is an excuse for you to "not want" the bonnet, this is also shown in the thread you ask for peoples opinions.
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Sorry, but are you a Psychic? got your crystal ball out? Fact: I would have not wanted the bonnet if I knew the underside was white. People who know me will be able to tell you I like things perfect. So sorry a can of spray paint will not do.

goldstar0011 said:
Firstly, scotishSR said to me that he was happy with the packaging, I personally wrap palettes full of LCD and Plasma screens every week so I used stuff from work, do not say you weren't happy because you are lying!

You also said you did not care about making the guy wait and you would open it before signing, again you did not.

Ok, being white underneath, wasn't mentioned, even I will apologise for that, I forgot about it myself.

We all know the trouble couriers cause from a similar experience on MSC not too long ago, Dusk did say he wanted to sell local, kristian wanted but because Scottish SR was first in line and stated he would pay £100 and sort the courier himself Dusk decided to go ahead with that agreed transaction.

I'm not going to throw my opinions in but why did you start a poll about colour you want after you paid, to me that thread seems to have changed your mind about wanting the bonnet.
Click to expand...

Firstly when I spoke to you on MSN, the packaging you described was decent. I have never sent bodybanels in the post before, so wouldnt know what was accepted as good or bad packaging, but once speaking to people. I have found out the packaging the bonnet was supplied in was very poor.

The fact that the guy practically shoved the signing sheet in my face to sign it before I unwrapped it didnt exactly help. I did give the bonnet a visual inspection through the packaging.

As for Dusk prefering to sell it locally. If you look in the buy and sell thread, he said that he would prefer to do that as he would get more money for it. He also said that aslong as he had £100 for it, he would sell it.

As for the poll. I made that after I seen the damage and before I went to the bodyshop to get a repair. I done it as it would need respraying, so I was asking peoples opinions what would look better so I could get a quote for both red and black and decide where to go from there. It was only there, when I got a proper look at the bonnet, that I noticed it was white on the underside.
 
scottish-sr said:
As for Dusk prefering to sell it locally. If you look in the buy and sell thread, he said that he would prefer to do that as he would get more money for it. He also said that aslong as he had £100 for it, he would sell it.
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End of the day - i did get £100 for it, but in the future - id rarther sell it for £80-90 to someone local to save this nonsence from happening.
 
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