what did you do to your micra today ?

Enuo said:
Tyres are polyester. Other factors come in when it comes to grip... like how solid the tyre shoulder is, how stiff the carcass is... eco tyres for example will have a VERY stiff carcass/sidewall, to minimise sidewall flex. This increases fuel efficiency but decreases grip. A539's, T1R's etc have very little treadways on the shoulder. This is where the majority of the load is carried mid corner, and the more rubber there is (e.g. fewer treadways) the more grip you have, at the expense of poor water displacement so reduced wet weather cornering grip.
Click to expand...

Therefore its pointless trying making a car handle on cheap tyres with sidewalls like jelly, no?
If I was going to run those tyres 24/7 I'd make an effort to get the car handling as good as possible on them but they were sat in the back garden taking up room :p

In the juniors we used to run on Pirelli P700's and a few juniors had them pop off the rim :/


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Jordan27 said:
Too much stiffness can lead to too much grip as mentioned above so it obviously can happen, even if it is a side effect of something else. Too much grip was a massive problem when I was karting, too.

Grip on the road under normal road conditions doing the speed limit and driving sensibly yeah, but not rallying! Most road tyres are made for functionality, least amount of wear and least amount of noise, not high grip under lots of load.
Yeah budget tyres are harder, but they got incredibly hot for only a few laps. They wear getting hot in the first/second corner.
I agree about pro teams.
I also agree about not having 100% grip at all times because depending on the surface, situations, tyre wear, weather conditions etc the car can be too grippy. I 100% believe that!


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Click to expand...
Preaching to the choir here.
You can't have too much grip its impossible. That is a fact not an opinion. Much like you can't have cold only a lack of heat.
If you're on gravel you set up for 100% grip on gravel. Same for dirt/mud/sand/tarmac etc
You can't go over that 100% threshold. We can only redistribute it
There are 100s of conflicting factors to evaluate but if we're just talking tyres, contact patches and gril then you can set a car up to handle on cheap tyree
 
Jordan27 said:
Therefore its pointless trying making a car handle on cheap tyres with sidewalls like jelly, no?
If I was going to run those tyres 24/7 I'd make an effort to get the car handling as good as possible on them but they were sat in the back garden taking up room :p

In the juniors we used to run on Pirelli P700's and a few juniors had them pop off the rim :/


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Click to expand...
You've got that backwards
Eco tyres have very stiff sidewalls not soft
 
h701micra said:
You've got that backwards
Eco tyres have very stiff sidewalls not soft
Click to expand...

So why are the sidewalls bending then? I never said they were eco tyres, I'm just saying the sidewall is like jelly because they're cheap! Drive them yourself and find out, not all tyres are the same are they?


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Jordan27 said:
So why are the sidewalls bending then? I never said they were eco tyres, I'm just saying the sidewall is like jelly because they're cheap! Drive them yourself and find out, not all tyres are the same are they?


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Click to expand...
That's called lateral grip. Regardless of material a sidewall will always flex unless its solid. Which is impossible

If every tyre was the same there would only be need for certain parameters for max grip.
I use standard eco winter tyres to forest rally a grpA cosworth.. believe me I know they're plenty capable
 
h701micra said:
That's called lateral grip. Regardless of material a sidewall will always flex unless its solid. Which is impossible

If every tyre was the same there would only be need for certain parameters for max grip.
I use standard eco winter tyres to forest rally a grpA cosworth.. believe me I know they're plenty capable
Click to expand...

Whether they're plenty capable or not, tyres that are made for rallying on gravel are going to have advantages, otherwise nobody would be using gravel tyres.
At the end of the day, I'm not using cheap tyres on the stages so why should I set my car up on them? The test on Tuesday was to make sure that the gearbox was working and nothing to do with handling. My car handles very well on 48's because that's how it's setup, I've had quite a few people mention how well my car handles compared to people running on more expensive gear, people that have been rallying for years.



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Not saying there isnt advantages, sidewall strength is one so they dont pop, your swaying from the original point. You're trying to tell me setting up on cheap tyres then running expensive ones doesnt work... I'm telling you it does. Whether you like it or not... it works :p
All comes down to cost. I can chew up 3/4 sets of gravel tyres in testing and at £80 a tyre its just not a cost effective way to set the car up
I found a tyre that had the same contact patch, sidewall size and material. Set up on 4 sets, ran the proper gravel tyres, got a 1st in class and 2nd O/A.. results speak for themselves.
If you're in a championship where you run 1 control tyre then it pays to use a proper set to set up on. But my events are never the same let alone on the same terrain. Tarmac Rally is essentially track racing and much simpler to set up :)
 
h701micra said:
Not saying there isnt advantages, sidewall strength is one so they dont pop, your swaying from the original point. You're trying to tell me setting up on cheap tyres then running expensive ones doesnt work... I'm telling you it does. Whether you like it or not... it works :p
All comes down to cost. I can chew up 3/4 sets of gravel tyres in testing and at £80 a tyre its just not a cost effective way to set the car up
I found a tyre that had the same contact patch, sidewall size and material. Set up on 4 sets, ran the proper gravel tyres, got a 1st in class and 2nd O/A.. results speak for themselves.
If you're in a championship where you run 1 control tyre then it pays to use a proper set to set up on. But my events are never the same let alone on the same terrain. Tarmac Rally is essentially track racing and much simpler to set up :)
Click to expand...

Cheap tyres are not made to handle how can't you see that? You could spend all day changing the setup to get nowhere, then put good tyres on and the car handles like a pig because the car is set up for different grip levels.
Yeah cost is a factor, hence if I want to test for grip I use part worn 48's that are not good enough to compete on.
And what rally was that?
Budget makes 48's my personal control tyre so I set up on a proper set, not cheap ones :)


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I once saw this article from Autospeed.com bout handling & grip
http://tech.mirage-performance.com/...d articles/article0223[1]Cornering basics.pdf

Contrary to popular opinion, it's possible to get a car handling very well on quite skinny tyres. That's because there's a huge difference between road holding and handling.

If you've a car that grips, grips, grips like **** to a blanket - and then when it lets go kills you -then I don't reckon you've a car that handles very well. On the other hand, if you've a car that you can make understeer, oversteer, or be neutral then you've got a car handling well.

Fitting big sticky tyres is the last step, not the first. When the car is handling (or you're driving it) in a way that inspires confidence and gives you excellent control, then's the time to up the grip levels. Generally, the car will then handle in exactly the same way, but at higher speeds and cornering loads.
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Won't higher grip mean more car lean in corners, requiring more camber, stiffer springs, stiffer shocks to control the faster weight transfer etc?
 
Enuo said:
Won't higher grip mean more car lean in corners, requiring more camber, stiffer springs, stiffer shocks to control the faster weight transfer etc?
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If you've got the base setup it wont matter. Its about balancing and distributing weight in a controlled manner, higher speeds mean fast transfer, higher G means more transfer. The 2 are not the same though. That's where the art of damping comes in
 
pollyp said:
I once saw this article from Autospeed.com bout handling & grip
http://tech.mirage-performance.com/...d articles/article0223[1]Cornering basics.pdf
Click to expand...

I can understand it but on skinny half decent tyres not skinny terrible tyres :p
I also just asked an up and coming rally driver and he said that he can have two sets of tyres, same compound and both of the same level grip that can completely change the handling of the car because they're different make tyres. Which shows how much of an influence a small change in tyres makes, never mind a big change!
And the middle paragraph says bad things about having too much grip :p

H701, what was that rally? I want to know if I've seen you about on the stages.


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Also 48's ain't really majorly sticky grippy tyres compared to what others run, so I guess they're the right tyres to set up on? A move to even more expensive slicks would prove good results but that's way out of budget to be spending on every event.


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Jordan27 said:
Also 48's ain't really majorly sticky grippy tyres compared to what others run, so I guess they're the right tyres to set up on? A move to even more expensive slicks would prove good results but that's way out of budget to be spending on every event.


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Click to expand...

I just run Avon Semi Slicks.
So much better than even performance Road tyres from Yokohama, got rid of all the (little) the understeer my car had... Will have to buy some more
 
Huggy444 said:
I just run Avon Semi Slicks.
So much better than even performance Road tyres from Yokohama, got rid of all the (little) the understeer my car had... Will have to buy some more
Click to expand...

Why?! Are you mad?! What a waste of money when you could just get £30 Eco tyres! Ha
See, they are the kind of tyres to maybe set up on if the budget is tight.. Some performance road tyres that are half decent.
Not not these things :p
su8yze7u.jpg



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Jordan27 said:
I can understand it but on skinny half decent tyres not skinny terrible tyres :p
I also just asked an up and coming rally driver and he said that he can have two sets of tyres, same compound and both of the same level grip that can completely change the handling of the car because they're different make tyres. Which shows how much of an influence a small change in tyres makes, never mind a big change!
And the middle paragraph says bad things about having too much grip :p

H701, what was that rally? I want to know if I've seen you about on the stages.


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Click to expand...
Like I say there's so many other factors.
I don't care what "up and coming" rally drivers think. I'll stick with tried, tested and proven. They didn't have "decent" tyres in the 70s and look what they achieced. Could tell you all day long but I don't think you'll listen to me regardless so I'll save my energy

Being as I took the suspension route of specialisation as a trade I like to think after a few years I know what I'm doing ;)

Have a look around. Chances are if you've seen me it'll be a white and red evo 7. The track rod rally springs to mind.
 
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Jordan27 said:
Also 48's ain't really majorly sticky grippy tyres compared to what others run, so I guess they're the right tyres to set up on? A move to even more expensive slicks would prove good results but that's way out of budget to be spending on every event.


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Click to expand...
Point proven ;)
 
Jordan27 said:
No it's really not... 48's are a performance tyre to set up on and are made to perform well.
THESE ARE NOT
demyqeje.jpg

These are the tyres I had on to test, NOT GRIPPY AT ALL AND NOT ANY GOOD TO SET UP ON.



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Click to expand...
Ok mate. I know nothing. Please teach me your wisdom
 
Jordan27 said:
Why?! Are you mad?! What a waste of money when you could just get £30 Eco tyres! Ha
See, they are the kind of tyres to maybe set up on if the budget is tight.. Some performance road tyres that are half decent.
Not not these things :p
su8yze7u.jpg



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Click to expand...
Lol I think you are missing what we were saying at the start. Lol it was never this serious
 
h701micra said:
Like I say there's so many other factors.
I don't care what "up and coming" rally drivers think. I'll stick with tried, tested and proven. They didn't have "decent" tyres in the 70s and look what they achieced. Could tell you all day long but I don't think you'll listen to me regardless so I'll save my energy

Being as I took the suspension route of specialisation as a trade I like to think after a few years I know what I'm doing ;)

Have a look around. Chances are if you've seen me it'll be a white and red evo 7. The track rod rally springs to mind.
Click to expand...

He is definitely an up and coming driver, don't be so confident that everything you say is 100% correct and take what other have to say into account please. He's rallying all over Europe so I'd like to think he has more experience and more knowledge. If he has an opinion then it's an opinion that I'm willing to trust. What he is saying is tried and tested by himself just the same as you. And I'm happy with you saving your energy.

Also the Andy Gray at the Trackrod is driving an orange Peugeot 205.


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After 10 days, I got no micra. :(

Finally, I am about to get micra in this weekend but this micra need to sort out with new mot and road tax. Wish me luck people. :)


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SirChris said:
Lol I think you are missing what we were saying at the start. Lol it was never this serious
Click to expand...

When I say cheap tyres I mean scrapyard tyres but what andy just replied "point proven" to tells me that his budget tyre is a yoko 48?
There is no way in hell that you can make a car handle on the above photographed tyres!


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Jordan27 said:
When I say cheap tyres I mean scrapyard tyres but what andy just replied "point proven" to tells me that his budget tyre is a yoko 48?
There is no way in hell that you can make a car handle on the above photographed tyres!


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Click to expand...
You forget or don't know I devote every waking moment to suspension and handling. Believe me if I wanted the car to handle on those tyres it will handle with those tyres on

The point was cheaper tyre to set up. Advance to expensive tyre to amplify effect. THAT was our point
 
h701micra said:
You forget or don't know I devote every waking moment to suspension and handling. Believe me if I wanted the car to handle on those tyres it will handle with those tyres on

The point was cheaper tyre to set up. Advance to expensive tyre to amplify effect. THAT was our point
Click to expand...
Yeah I was saying he bottom bit
 
h701micra said:
You forget or don't know I devote every waking moment to suspension and handling. Believe me if I wanted the car to handle on those tyres it will handle with those tyres on

The point was cheaper tyre to set up. Advance to expensive tyre to amplify effect. THAT was our point
Click to expand...

I'm not questioning your suspension guru ability because I don't know you.
I am trying to get my opinion across though, but it's obviously wrong.
I'd prefer set up on part worn 48's or at least a mild performance tyre, not ditchfinders. I believe there is no advantage in finding grip that isnt there.


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Jordan27 said:
I'm not questioning your suspension guru ability because I don't know you.
I am trying to get my opinion across though, but it's obviously wrong.
I'd prefer set up on part worn 48's or at least a mild performance tyre, not ditchfinders. I believe there is no advantage in finding grip that isnt there.


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Click to expand...
Well there must be grip there... Cause like.. They have to be approved for road use? Am I mixing something?
 
SirChris said:
Well there must be grip there... Cause like.. They have to be approved for road use? Am I mixing something?
Click to expand...
I didn't mean literally NO grip at all. Obviously they have to grip. But while being driven sensibly at the speed limit and not in a manner that will get you pulled over for reckless driving. They are made for grannies in Micras so they don't have to replace the tyres for 10 years.

They're not made to be driven hard aka on a rally car.


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