bike carbs but staying fuel injected?
- Thread starter blister
- Start date
pollyp
Club Member
maybe fit a nistune board, tps on the throttle shaft, enclose the 4 carbs, run the 1 maf at the inlet then get an expert to program a custom VQ map?
running the carbs unenclosed would prob need individual mafs, dunno if k11 ecu supports it, cos each one will only read the flow through that port in 1 out of the 4 strokes.
pollyp
Club Member
The easiest was to go itb's with bike carbs would be to sell them and buy some proper bike throttle bodies, look at newer gsxr's, r1's they all run itb's now. It should be a lot less work and a case of a remap to get them running right
just to give you an idea of what you should be looking at
just to give you an idea of what you should be looking at
thats all very well and good Karl, but remember some high end bikes (well ok, all superbikes after about 2007/2008) have dual injectors. CBR1000RR fireblade has non-direct multi-point fuel injection similar to the micra system.... ie, 4 injectors in the inlet manifold with a pressure regulator (although its electronic) but there are another set of injectors in the "airbox" or "plenum". this could make a mess of the electronics. if bike throttle bodies are going to be used, they really need to be sorted out from carbs. IN MY OPINION. this is the result of months of research and years of experience with high-end bikes.
tomwest said:
Ah never knew that my bike knowledge stops in the eighty's, but surely if you're hooking it up to something like mega squirt then the extra injectors won't matter
The throttle bodies I was using to demonstrate where just that a demonstration, cause using carbs require them being completely stripped and having the internals smoothed
GSX600R K1-K3 throttlebodies work well on the K11, as they are very close to the cylinder spacings from the K11, so will make minimal fuss when it comes to putting together a manifold. They are separable also, so it you wanted to you could re-space them with some work.
A set of bike throttlebodies would be a much simpler and less complicated setup over adapting a set of bike carbs, they're easily available and cheap. I have modified a set of GSX600R K3 throttlebodies, removed the upper linkages with the secondary throttle plates and made them fit a stock K11 inlet manifold. You have a choice of either using the standard inboard injectors and rail or using the injectors & rail which come with the GSX600R injectors, which are ~230cc/min and sit just behind the throttle plates. This will give slightly better time for fuel mixing for those pushing higher power as an option, (although small gain potential). Fuel rail is also easily adapted to the K11 fueling system, (takes the standard fuel regulator or an adjustable one with only the end needing drilling and tapping for a return). At 38mm ID they are also well sized over something bigger from the GSX1000R or larger R1.
It's also worth noting that unless you specify you want the airbox with the additional injectors and throttlebodies, you'll more than likely just get the bodies with the wiring loom and plugs as taken from the bike, (this is what we got anyway). In theory you would be connecting up the fuel injectors on the OEM fuel rail or adapting the K11 loom to use the bike throttlebody injectors depending on your choice, so the 8 injector setups don't pose a problem or limitation necessarily.
As with any individual throttlebody system, it will need more than a re-map, as the Nistune is not able to map in Alpha-N, so you'd be looking at some type of standalone ecu to make it work unless you do what has been suggested earlier and enclose the whole intake in a common plenum and hook it up to a MAF sensor in order to make it work with a Nistune system on the K11 ecu. The latter seems like an awfully large amount of work to do in order to steer away from the standard induction system though....
As for 8 injectors, we will ultimately end up on 8 when we upgrade the ecu on the Jenveys but for now 4 will suffice to get us going initially on the Omex
EDIT: Here's a youtube video of chickenwahoo's K11 running on the dyno on a set of GSX600R throttlebodies, stock long block, Tomei Poncams on an Emerald ecu.
A set of bike throttlebodies would be a much simpler and less complicated setup over adapting a set of bike carbs, they're easily available and cheap. I have modified a set of GSX600R K3 throttlebodies, removed the upper linkages with the secondary throttle plates and made them fit a stock K11 inlet manifold. You have a choice of either using the standard inboard injectors and rail or using the injectors & rail which come with the GSX600R injectors, which are ~230cc/min and sit just behind the throttle plates. This will give slightly better time for fuel mixing for those pushing higher power as an option, (although small gain potential). Fuel rail is also easily adapted to the K11 fueling system, (takes the standard fuel regulator or an adjustable one with only the end needing drilling and tapping for a return). At 38mm ID they are also well sized over something bigger from the GSX1000R or larger R1.
It's also worth noting that unless you specify you want the airbox with the additional injectors and throttlebodies, you'll more than likely just get the bodies with the wiring loom and plugs as taken from the bike, (this is what we got anyway). In theory you would be connecting up the fuel injectors on the OEM fuel rail or adapting the K11 loom to use the bike throttlebody injectors depending on your choice, so the 8 injector setups don't pose a problem or limitation necessarily.
As with any individual throttlebody system, it will need more than a re-map, as the Nistune is not able to map in Alpha-N, so you'd be looking at some type of standalone ecu to make it work unless you do what has been suggested earlier and enclose the whole intake in a common plenum and hook it up to a MAF sensor in order to make it work with a Nistune system on the K11 ecu. The latter seems like an awfully large amount of work to do in order to steer away from the standard induction system though....
As for 8 injectors, we will ultimately end up on 8 when we upgrade the ecu on the Jenveys but for now 4 will suffice to get us going initially on the Omex
EDIT: Here's a youtube video of chickenwahoo's K11 running on the dyno on a set of GSX600R throttlebodies, stock long block, Tomei Poncams on an Emerald ecu.
GSX600R K1-K3 throttlebodies work well on the K11, as they are very close to the cylinder spacings from the K11, so will make minimal fuss when it comes to putting together a manifold. They are separable also, so it you wanted to you could re-space them with some work.
A set of bike throttlebodies would be a much simpler and less complicated setup over adapting a set of bike carbs, they're easily available and cheap. I have modified a set of GSX600R K3 throttlebodies, removed the upper linkages with the secondary throttle plates and made them fit a stock K11 inlet manifold. You have a choice of either using the standard inboard injectors and rail or using the injectors & rail which come with the GSX600R injectors, which are ~230cc/min and sit just behind the throttle plates. This will give slightly better time for fuel mixing for those pushing higher power as an option, (although small gain potential). Fuel rail is also easily adapted to the K11 fueling system, (takes the standard fuel regulator or an adjustable one with only the end needing drilling and tapping for a return). At 38mm ID they are also well sized over something bigger from the GSX1000R or larger R1.
It's also worth noting that unless you specify you want the airbox with the additional injectors and throttlebodies, you'll more than likely just get the bodies with the wiring loom and plugs as taken from the bike, (this is what we got anyway). In theory you would be connecting up the fuel injectors on the OEM fuel rail or adapting the K11 loom to use the bike throttlebody injectors depending on your choice, so the 8 injector setups don't pose a problem or limitation necessarily.
As with any individual throttlebody system, it will need more than a re-map, as the Nistune is not able to map in Alpha-N, so you'd be looking at some type of standalone ecu to make it work unless you do what has been suggested earlier and enclose the whole intake in a common plenum and hook it up to a MAF sensor in order to make it work with a Nistune system on the K11 ecu. The latter seems like an awfully large amount of work to do in order to steer away from the standard induction system though....
As for 8 injectors, we will ultimately end up on 8 when we upgrade the ecu on the Jenveys but for now 4 will suffice to get us going initially on the Omex
EDIT: Here's a youtube video of chickenwahoo's K11 running on the dyno on a set of GSX600R throttlebodies, stock long block, Tomei Poncams on an Emerald ecu.
nice one mate, that is a good bit of information! looks like i am going to have to buy a couple of things and do some research but thank you and thanks again!
yeah the more the better in the case of injectos eh?!!!!! i'm looking at keeping my multi-point, and putting a single-point on as well. got an emerald ecu going on so shouldnt be a problem.
this is the sensible toy car in the house. my brother has a peugeot 205 engine swop from 1.8 non turbo diesel to 2.0hdi from 306. with remap this already made 125bhp and 260 lb ft. the next stage is on its way now, comprising of water injection, methanol injection, nos, butane and oxygen. expected results should be around 500lb ft.
this is the sensible toy car in the house. my brother has a peugeot 205 engine swop from 1.8 non turbo diesel to 2.0hdi from 306. with remap this already made 125bhp and 260 lb ft. the next stage is on its way now, comprising of water injection, methanol injection, nos, butane and oxygen. expected results should be around 500lb ft.
Both Yes and no regarding no. of injectors. Yes, multiple injectors can be a benefit when considered purely from an efficiency perspective but it comes at the price of both complexity and cost. We'll probably make 95% of or target power on 4 injectors, the additional 8 may only contribute the other 5% gain, so when considered from that perspective, the value will more than likely be questioned by most people here.
Regarding the HDi endeavor, 260Nm would be more realistic
frank
Club Member
I blame myself for sending Frank that t-shirt, turned him into a turbo nutter
regarding the extra injectors, apparently you should,nt remap the ecu for more than about 80% injector duration else they are overworked/overheated etc, but if your injector durations are over 35% and the inlet valve is only open for 1/3 of the 4 stroke cycle, then you are squirting fuel at a closed inlet valve surely ?
regarding the extra injectors, apparently you should,nt remap the ecu for more than about 80% injector duration else they are overworked/overheated etc, but if your injector durations are over 35% and the inlet valve is only open for 1/3 of the 4 stroke cycle, then you are squirting fuel at a closed inlet valve surely ?
Very true, 80% is the normal rule of thumb but that's normally due to the injector flow rate dropping off past 85% due to pintle float. 80% gives a little contingency for the tune.
frank
Club Member
probably why 8 injectors give gains then eh, you can set them all to 40% duration @ wot, and then you,re actually squirting into an open valve
You can do it several ways. You can use a smaller set of inboard injectors to give nice atomization at low load/low rpm points, use them up to a point, (maybe 80% duty switching point), and then switch to the outer injectors only for the higher speed/higher load points. This however can lead to switchover fueling issues when switching between injector banks.
The other alternative option is to again run on the inboard injectors, mapped on a duty cycle basis and phase the outer set of injectors in/out on an as needed supplementary basis, so more like a twin injector setup. This often ends up in a more smooth fueling setup but it very much depends on the engine as to what works best. It's worth noting that gains from bringing in the outer injectors may probably not be seen below say 6000rpm.
Gains are generally linked to better fuel atomization through increased mixing time and also a charge cooling effect from the fuel. Some downsides maybe fuel dropout and possibly some increased tendency to spit back.
I am not sure that we will be pushing things hard enough to see much of a gain, but I will have a go with it regardless as it will be a good experiment to try when we upgrade on the EMS which will be capable to run staged injection and it will be a good excuse to fill those outer holes
