very unhappy with info from members

robbluek10

robbluek10

Ex. Club Member
hi all when i first joined the site i was reading alot of threads and i was lead to belive that a vauxhall calibra 2.0 exhaust manifold would be the best 4-2-1 manifold to use on the k10 so me being me sourced one and yesturday i spent the whole day cutting welding and bending the manifold oh and extending it to fit the k10 in the right place so to whom ever said it was a good choice it is far from it unless me and my dad are very blind on how this would fit with little modification

so to all thinking of this manifold stay away from it untill this is sorted with a correct answer

i will post some pics soon of the finish manifold so all can see the trouble it has put me through
 
Tbh, I think using the vauxhall calibra manifold would be far easier and cheap than your other options...It costs far more to put together your own manifold or to buy a K11 manifold then change the thingo to fit the K10.

He's right in some respects, probably not in others.
 
hi whipit i never exspected i to be easy as knew there would be some little bits to stop me but the water pipe was one of them the angle of the headers also i want my exhaust the full lenght of my car it was going to put it god knows where lol and the gap on the altonater is close i have completly cut the mani up then remade it to fit around every thing then head to the back of the car

jstone i could have made one out of stanless but was going for the quick lazy way but how wrong was i but nevr mind it is done now with a stainless and mild steel mix pmsl
 
Since this is a thread about manifolds, anyone just tried 4 straight pipes out from the exhaust to the side/back of the car? What'd the performance implications be over 4-2-1?
 
In response to the above post, absolutely diabolical on an engine this size.
As far as metal coolant pipe i bent mine and chopped a lug off.
 
I am building manifold, will do a thread when done, I am creating it from over the counter parts (bends, collector etc) and making it easy to weld as possible.

So far it has cost me £40, after I have bought the rest of the bits I'm probably looking at about £80.

If I can get it made up I will make a few more as long as I have the interest.
 
justin

i think 4 separate pipes would give more power, but the "tuned length" would be very short, (maybe 18") and very loud :eek:
 
"Tuned length"? Not exactly top notch on terminology here. Any explaination? :) I understand it'd be loud, but don't people put straight through racing exhausts on their motorcycles? Surely this'd be no different to that, right?
 
justin

in 4 stroke karting in america they use a straight pipe as an exhaust (no silencer) and they select the length of the pipe for the type of track they,re on
and drag racers use "stacks" of a set length
 
Yes on a car its completely different, the engine relies on each cylinder pulling gases from the next cylinder. This is done by having the pipes pass each other thus creating a vacuum. Basicly.
If you want to see what its like the pipes not connected just take off the manifold, response will be high but your have zero torque and lower Bhp than standard.
 
frank said:
justin

in 4 stroke karting in america they use a straight pipe as an exhaust (no silencer) and they select the length of the pipe for the type of track they,re on
and drag racers use "stacks" of a set length
Click to expand...
That's the how, now's the why? Why does the pipe length make a difference? I can understand it from a logical point of view, if you've got a long pipe the cylinder will fire and the gas will travel down the exhaust and slowly cool (this slowing down) and then pressure could build? Dunno...That's speculation on my part.
 
rob, sorry if you felt mis informed, but i was just acting on what bob said in a thread i read, tbh i never even offered it up to the engine i just thought that it was going to stand too high so would need shortening,

have you managed to get it fitted eventually?
 
ollyc98 said:
I am building manifold, will do a thread when done, I am creating it from over the counter parts (bends, collector etc) and making it easy to weld as possible.

So far it has cost me £40, after I have bought the rest of the bits I'm probably looking at about £80.

If I can get it made up I will make a few more as long as I have the interest.
Click to expand...


i could be interest'd
 
justin

some info here
http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechArticles/Theory/theory.html

and here
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/exhaust/0505phr_exh/index.html
Headers -- Primary Pipe Diameters
quote,
Big pipes flow more, so is bigger better? Answer: absolutely not. Primary pipes that are too big defeat our quest for the all-important velocity-enhanced scavenging effect. Without knowledge to the contrary, the biggest fear is that the selected tube diameters could be too small, thereby constricting flow and dropping power. Sure, if they are way under what is needed, lack of flow will cause power to suffer. In practice though it is better, especially for a street-driven machine, to have pipes a little too small rather than a little too big. If the pipes are too large a fair chunk of torque can be lost without actually gaining much in the way of top-end power.
 
Argh! I have a book at home that would explain this perfectly.Anyway, from memory the reason single pipes are not good is that the engine relies on the previous exhaust flows to "pull out" the exhaust gas on subsequent cycles. I'm also fairly sure pressure and pressure waves play into it somewhere (possibly with resonance)
 
zanes

i think the pullout refers to the scavenging of the combustion chamber
the exhaust flow can only want to slow down as it travels along the system (ie it can,t accelerate on its own) , so can only get in the way of the pulse thats behind it, creating backpressure, i would have thought
 
That's what I meant, ie the last cycles exhaust flow assists sucking mixture into/exhaust gas out of the other cylinder. I'll leave it at that, as I know this stuff gets very complicated very quickly!
 
zanes

yeh, sort of, it sucks the burnt air out of the combustion chamber, coz the piston only reaches the bottom of the chamber, eh
 
my understanding is slightly different. I dont have a degree or anything. I thought that as the fuel is ignited, a pressure wave is formed. BANG. If the exaust is the right length, the pressure wave will resonate. Upon resonating, the wave will provide low pressure ouside the exaust valve, which aids the removal of exhaust gasses from the cylinder. Like I said, I am no qualified to have this opinion.
 
robbluek10 said:
hi all when i first joined the site i was reading alot of threads and i was lead to belive that a vauxhall calibra 2.0 exhaust manifold would be the best 4-2-1 manifold to use on the k10 so me being me sourced one and yesturday i spent the whole day cutting welding and bending the manifold oh and extending it to fit the k10 in the right place so to whom ever said it was a good choice it is far from it unless me and my dad are very blind on how this would fit with little modification

so to all thinking of this manifold stay away from it untill this is sorted with a correct answer

i will post some pics soon of the finish manifold so all can see the trouble it has put me through
Click to expand...

Unfortunately thats what happens when you listen to people who are full of theory and have no pratical experience in doing what they say at all. The site is full of this at the moment.
 
ed

but we,re not compiling a wiki here surely ?, its a forum/live debate, where members can express their opinion, (which can be challenged)
and all the more interesting for it :laugh:
 
robbluek10 I can understand the frustration of trusting somebody that was wrong?

But when you sourced one, did you not measure it up? It's like somebody saying, "An SR20 fits in a K11". And then they complain when it costs them thousands to do it.

Take what you read with a pinch of salt, do your own research and make your own decisions.
 
who the frak told you that?

the k11 manifold is the closest fit and even that need quite some modification to fit! (i know as i have done this and made it work!)

i cant believe someone said a calibra manidold would be a close fit the engine isnt even similar!
 
richj said:
my understanding is slightly different. I dont have a degree or anything. I thought that as the fuel is ignited, a pressure wave is formed. BANG. If the exaust is the right length, the pressure wave will resonate. Upon resonating, the wave will provide low pressure ouside the exaust valve, which aids the removal of exhaust gasses from the cylinder. Like I said, I am no qualified to have this opinion.
Click to expand...
Well, after reading those articles it seems to work like this:
(Lets assume there are only two cylinders!)
Cylinder 1 fires and releases the exhaust gasses.
Exhaust gasses (AND! pressure wave) travel down the exhaust manifold untill it meets Cylinder 2 manifold.
Where they combine, the pressure wave causes a vacuum in Cylinder 2 as it travels down the rest of the exhaust.
If timed right, the vacuum will hit just as the exhaust / inlet valves are both open on Cylinder 2, causing a suction effect on the inlet manifold!
The vacuum allows more air/fuel mixture to be sucked into the cylinder as well as expelling waste exhaust fumes better.
Click to expand...
...I think that's how it works anyway. Apparently the exhaust vacuum can be as high as 6 - 7 psi on the inlet valve, where as the natural piston reaction is around 1.

I understand now. That's cool.

Having read the whole article, it seems to revolve around V8's. I'm wondering how much it applies to a flat 4. If the same science applies, then what most "boy racers" do with exhaust systems and mufflers is a bad thing. Supposedly glass pack mufflers builds up back pressure (due to the pressure wave) causing a drop in power. If you use a reflector box just after the 4-2-1 (or 4-1) finishes up, the pressure wave is dispersed and then it doesn't really matter what sort of muffler you've got on.

You can have a race tuned exhaust that could be as quiet as a road car. :)
 
ollyc98 said:
I am building manifold, will do a thread when done, I am creating it from over the counter parts (bends, collector etc) and making it easy to weld as possible.

So far it has cost me £40, after I have bought the rest of the bits I'm probably looking at about £80.

If I can get it made up I will make a few more as long as I have the interest.
Click to expand...

How + where are you getting your collectors so cheap?
 
frank said:
ed

but we,re not compiling a wiki here surely ?, its a forum/live debate, where members can express their opinion, (which can be challenged)
and all the more interesting for it :laugh:
Click to expand...

This site was once fact over fiction. Unfortunately now fiction rules and facts get ignored.
I find it frustrating as it leads to threads like this, in fact its terrible. "forum/live debate" doesn't work for me.
When I started the MSC now 11 years ago it was to exchange factual and real experiences not to encourage bad practices and bodges. Now its all being lost beneath this kind of stuff. People who actually do know what they are doing (which there are a few still here) get completely ignored, most have become too frustrated and left.
 
Ed said:
This site was once fact over fiction. Unfortunately now fiction rules and facts get ignored.
I find it frustrating as it leads to threads like this, in fact its terrible. "forum/live debate" doesn't work for me.
When I started the MSC now 11 years ago it was to exchange factual and real experiences not to encourage bad practices and bodges. Now its all being lost beneath this kind of stuff. People who actually do know what they are doing (which there are a few still here) get completely ignored, most have become too frustrated and left.
Click to expand...


While I agree, you learn from your mistakes. If no one tries these things, we'd never know for sure.

Though this idea does sound a bit far fetched.
 
Point is we have tried this, we KNOW what works and what doesn't. How can anything progress if you cover the same ground time and time again. The younger lot here are in an IDEAL POSITION to get a HUGE head start over what we had 10 years ago, yet to many of you think you know better and wont listen to anything that's said, thus continue the repeated cycle of getting no where fast. Can you tell I find it infuriating?!!
 
The reason someone recommended that mani is because it's a STANDARD 4-2-1, so it'dbe easy/ cheap to get. noone ever said it'd fit straight in.
 
Thats part the problem. Too many people are recommending something that they have NO idea about. Its potentially dangerous too. Unless you know for sure what you are saying will work it should be made very clear that its UNPROVEN and essentially a completely wild GUESS. Or like this thread proves you'll get someone else come along and try it out only to find what a waste of time it was.

It just seems that people read other sites quote it off on the MSC as fact and have totally no experience at all.
 
Ed said:
Point is we have tried this, we KNOW what works and what doesn't. How can anything progress if you cover the same ground time and time again. The younger lot here are in an IDEAL POSITION to get a HUGE head start over what we had 10 years ago, yet to many of you think you know better and wont listen to anything that's said, thus continue the repeated cycle of getting no where fast. Can you tell I find it infuriating?!!
Click to expand...

/ end this and other threads

the msc already has a hard time, i could pick 10 threads in the past two weeks that would make it worse.

if you correct someone on here, you get shot down, its really not worth putting anything useful..
 
Nothing is beyond saving... Just it would upset some in the process of any change.
 
What we need is a section dedicated to serious discussion, an 'experts corner' where you can only as a question if you are actually doing something to your car, not theory. For example if you were fitting a charger and you wanted to know the best place for an oil feed, that sort of thing.

Then all the people that know their stuff could enjoy that part and threads like this and all the recent charger threads could be ignored by those that don't wanna hear it.

Just an idea is all...
 
ollyc98 said:
Tinternet! I'll find a link

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=CCLCL2
Click to expand...
Those articles frank posted, if they're to be trusted, are probably worth a read if you're building a full exhaust system. :)

frank said:
but we,re not compiling a wiki here surely ?
Click to expand...
I'm trying to get a wiki started at http://micra.source-dq.com (as a reminder to everyone) and am actually thinking about scrapping the "combined" wiki idea and just making a K10 wiki. K10's seem to be discussed the most here (probably because newer drivers (like my self) can afford to run them!) so perhaps it's worth doing that...Then restricting posting to certain people who've proven them selves to be a good source of information.
 
Dont take this the wrong way but I'd never recommend having MSC derived info stored remotely from the home of the MSC.

Olly, there is no point having a fact and fiction secion. It should all be good useful content not rubbish.

lol @ pete I like that idea.
 
i dont think you should trust anyone without pictures to prove the theories.

ed has pics and vids, kristian has pics and vids, micra pete has pics and vids, frank has lots of pics, i have lots of pics (all beit rubish ones) alan arnold has lots of pics, nis (james) has lots and lots of pics and an awesome vid, etc etc

if you think you can cantribute then do a "how to" with pics and step by step instructions. or help and "to avoid" sections.

i mean you even get them on RC car forums "how to wire an esc" how clean your brushed motor" " how to build shock absorbers" etc. all writen by members to help others and to reduce questions and threads like this.

but please. i am sick and tired of the same old threads popping up every single day. "how can i get more power from my car" w"what body kits are available" "what wheels will fit my car" "how easy can i turbo my car" etc etc etc.....

there are millions of posts of this nature and they are all on that magical little button at the top of the page called "search"

GRRR
 
In 2 years of being here, this has to be the most worthwhile arguement I've read.

You know if you try posting on an old topic, you have to tick a box saying that you realise it's however old..? Could we not have when we make a new thread reminding people to search?
 
i think a line should be drawn however, i dont think its fair to ignore people who make suggestions but dont have the knowledge to realise that its not going to work or be dangerous. whats "stupid" is only a matter of opinion to say for example ED who is very experienced and knows his stuff, but to someone just starting out it may seem like a good phesable idea. if that makes any sense. its a learning curve, i have learnt i huge amount from this site. i'm not an inervator, for instance i would not have rigged up the bike carbs to my car if they had not been tried and tested, and i think thats the way to go, especialy if you dont have the knowledge, skill and Practice for it.
 
But thats the point now that people cannot ask these questions becuase the admin are going to simply delete them...............

Way to make people welcome to the site...as my first question on the site was pretty stupid now i look back on it, but if someone had just deleted it and didnt explain like someone did then i would have never joined!

Other forums system works on the basis that you have to introduce yourself first, then the forum opens up....Maybe if a note would be posted in the "new persons" intro thread about posting rules and the fact that they should use the search tool before asking any questions...then this will cut down on "stupid questions"............
 

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