• Please only use these forums for blogs, they are not a discussion forum

The 1.3 Turbo Battle####

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Right so, we were all at JAE. Saw the issues with the car and the oil in the cylinder... She was miss firing. So I wasnt being a complete #### tbh... She was driving fine on the way up. When we were there she was miss firing. I feel like less of an idiot now... YOU NEVER GUESS WHAT! she is noe firing on all four... what does this mean??? I have no clue. any one have ideas?

Much Love.
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Right next question, I have a fog light plug on the drivers side of the engine bay....there isn't one on the other side...work that out! Any ideas?
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Right after bugging frank for far to long and pestering him with questions I will be pulling the engine apart to check ringlands and pistons. Watch this space. Will be buying an ipod touch with a camera so i can post my results to the forum! Watch this space.
 

frank

Club Member
Right after bugging frank for far to long and pestering him with questions I will be pulling the engine apart to check ringlands and pistons. Watch this space. Will be buying an ipod touch with a camera so i can post my results to the forum! Watch this space.
Heh, the oily piston and low compression that polly described, and oilmist from the vent sounds fairly conclusive tbh chris, and i,ll be amazed if the 12 quid ebay h/g survived enough boost to det a piston lol.
I would get a 2nd opinion first tho really :)
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Okay frank, well I am stuck for second opinions really. Garages round here go um and argh then say 200 pounds and they will think about it. Well both you and polly think ringlands. I will replace with a decent head gasket as well. I suppose pulling her apart I can find out it damage has occurred. I should replace the H/G, double up whilst I am at it? I need to learn for myself I suppose.
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Paul did mention that I may have over filled her with oil. Which I have read some where causes pressure build up, possibly pushing past the rings?
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
I heard a lot of people saying doubling up for less compression. okay then, sounds clever. Need to think about retarding the ignition.
 

Guy

Has gone over to the oily side...
Club Member
Chris, check this video out. I've never got hands on with a dizzy but this video explained them to me perfectly. YouTube is awesome for learning car tech :):

 

pollyp

Club Member
if the rings or ring lands have failed that badly that oil fouls the cyl & plugs and literally gushed through the exh system, won't be surprised if it's damaged the bore which could require the engine block disassembled for a proper machining which = time & lots money for new set of rings, deglaze, maybe spare piston/rod, HG etc etc and new rings require a long costly break-in procedure.
all of which isn't guaranteed to fix it all.

the overfilled oil could've been a botch fix for the broken piston ring drinking through oil fast, but could've also resulted in oil being foamed up by the spinning crank at high rev and maybe lead to brief loss of oil pressure from sucking up bubbles which is bad for bearings n turbos

the flood of oil from cyl1 will have fouled the o2 which caused the rich mixture on 2-3-4 and the cats will be goosed.

check the turbo bearing & seals isn't goosed too

after all that imho I'd rather replace it with a normal working used engine.

so thats new engine, new o2 sensor, new cats, prob new clutch while its apart, oil, filter, coolant,
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
sorry paul, my notifications didnt show your message, karl yours too! Ah so, lots of #### on my plate :D Whats wrong with yours karl? apart from getting rid of her.
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
15ydu0.jpg
 
Needs a new crank pulley seal :), not getting rid of her just can't do it lol

Good progress there wont be long till its up and running again eh
 

skymera

Brutal Honesty
This is such a shame. Seemed like a right good car when I had a ride in it.

Lets hope everything gets sorted before the winter kicks in ;)
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Ignition Tuning Ideas for Turbos

04/13/99 Updated 05/31/01, 12/20/99, 02/19/03, 07/10/03
This article details the basics of tuning a turbocharged engine running on pump fuel. You will be programming 2 different parameters here, RPM IGNITION and IGN RET/MAN PRESS. The RPM parameter has a timing slot every 250 rpm on most systems. The timing at idle is usually in the 5 to 15 degree range on most engines, 10 being a good starting point. From this point, most engines will run well if you add around 3 degrees per location, with full advance being acheived at 2500 to 3000 rpm. With SDS and most engines, you should avoid more than 30-35 degrees total timing at rpms below 2500. This is counterproductive to power, longevity can cause high current draw on F type coil packs leading to blown fuses and possible failure.
ign1.jpg

Most engines like between 28 and 38 degrees of advance for maximum power. Most small bore engines with good plug locations, are happy with 30 to 35 degrees. Once you get to around 3000 rpm, the same advance value can be entered the rest of the way up the chart.
ign2.jpg

With low octane pump fuel, your engine will likely detonate a lot with these basic settings so you will have to enter retard values in the IGN RET/MAN PRESS windows. These tell the ECU to retard ignition timing at a certain boost or manifold pressure. By entering a 2 at 4psi, you would get 2 degrees of retard at 4 pounds of boost. Most engines will require increasing amounts of ignition retard as the boost pressure increases. The amount depends on many factors including the particular engine, compression ratio and the fuel being used
ign5.jpg

To get reasonable fuel economy, most engines advance the timing past the point where maximum, wide open throttle power is obtained. Since most street engines are cruised in the 2750 to 3750 rpm range, extra timing can be added here if this is a concern. You might add something like 4 to 5 degrees.
ign3.jpg

ign4.jpg

Most engines encounter the worst detonation in the rpm range where maximum torque is produced. Most import street turbos find this in the 3750 to 5000 rpm range, although this can vary widely depending on turbo matching. Since this range is mostly above where the engine is normally cruised, timing can be pulled back here without impacting economy. In fact, timing will usually have to be retarded below what is required for maximum power at high rpm in this rpm range. This retard will not be required on high octane fuel usually. It should be noted that most performance turbos make very little boost below 3000 rpm so detonation is usually not a great concern below this rpm.
As you can see, the engine requires different amounts of timing under different conditions. How do we mesh all of this together? Below is a sample ignition map for a 2400cc turbo. Torque peak is in the 3750 to 4750 rpm range so we pull back the RPM timing values in this area. Highway cruising is in the 2750 to 3500 rpm range so we add a few more degrees here. Timing above the max torque range can be re-advanced a bit as peak cylinder pressures fall off. Boost retard starts very low on this engine because it has a high compression ratio. Remember: total timing is the result of the RPM timing minus the boost retard value under a given condition.
RPM IgnitionValue
1000 12
1250 15
1500 18
1750 21
2000 24
2250 27
2500 30
2750 35
3000 36
3250 36
3500 36
3750 35
4000 31
4250 30
4500 30
4750 30
5000 32
5250 33
5500 33
5750 33
6000 33
6250 33
6500 33
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Engine out!

71597.jpg


Think i needed a jack like franks. I had two of those tiny and pathetic halfords ones. was a nightmare.
 

Guy

Has gone over to the oily side...
Club Member
Nice one Chris. You've gone from mechanical noob to engine out in the few months I've known you :).
 

Harlen

Dr. Zoidberg
Site Supporter
Bloody hell Chris, I wish I was as mental as you when it comes to mechanical work. They say the best way to learn is by doing, keep this up and you'll be a fully qualified mechanic by the new year :D
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
I wish I had a camera to show you the work. I have got all bolt ons off. Figured that I should take off the PAS to avoid de pressurising the systems..plus cant be arsed bleeding it. Should of defiantly taken the timing wheel off whilst in the car, the bolt was TIGHT. wait now thinking of it, does it even need to come off. Damn. Sump is off. Got some intresting stuff in there.. seems like a square-like seal is in there. and lots of worm looking stuff. probs the head gasket maker used over the engine and parts of the main H/G. Rocker cover is off and cams out. Like how the exhust cam has a red paint on it.. great to stop me forgetting. Cam chain freed by taking the cam sprockets off. Will head the head off and will be down to the lump. Will pop the pistons with rods out later and report my findings.

Guy, I wish I had done it faster, but tbf I am glad I didnt blow anything up straight away. its odd really. how did the ringland go as I wasnt boosting at the time?? I may of put the turbo on abit towards the end of her life, figured I had to strip the engine anyway... might as well enjoy her. I am doing this all to impress you mate, after you telling me that you had chatted about me going from zero to 60 at JAE. Wish I was picking up the skills fater tbh.

Harlen, haha ta mate. Not mental, how hard can it be...famous last words :D You learn by breaking things! Well I do evidently.
 

frank

Club Member
Engine out!



Think i needed a jack like franks. I had two of those tiny and pathetic halfords ones. was a nightmare.
Thats why i asked about the head off chris :) you would probably found it easier to crack the headbolts while in the car, or else remove the head first eh (then lift the block out by hand)
 
On timing, can anyone tell me what standard ignition is for a cg13 and what its final timing is at 6000+ rpm? I'm gonna work on my micra over winter too, get coilovers, brakes, and other parts sorted til the summer when I start the turbo build myself :)

Pepper
 

frank

Club Member
On timing, can anyone tell me what standard ignition is for a cg13 and what its final timing is at 6000+ rpm? I'm gonna work on my micra over winter too, get coilovers, brakes, and other parts sorted til the summer when I start the turbo build myself :)

Pepper
15 deg @ idle pepper, and the timing @ 6k will depend what load there is (probably 35 ish under no load, and maybe half that under load ?) polly posted his table,s in his blog iirc :)
 
I watched the video and the guys use a strobe gun for timing but I've never done this so was wondering if we have a mark on the crank or something to follow for timing too?

15 deg @ idle pepper, and the timing @ 6k will depend what load there is (probably 35 ish under no load, and maybe half that under load ?) polly posted his table,s in his blog iirc :)

I'm Polly will be along with a link to his thread soon with page etc ;) damn view whore!

Pepper
 

r-reg-sr

-------
Site Supporter
I watched the video and the guys use a strobe gun for timing but I've never done this so was wondering if we have a mark on the crank or something to follow for timing too?



I'm Polly will be along with a link to his thread soon with page etc ;) damn view whore!

Pepper

Seen his index in kkk11 blogs?
 
I'v seen it but there is SO much info it's still hard to find some stuff. And trying it on your mobile... dont click any of polly's links lol be there for days! Going home tonight to take the battery out of mine for a charge!
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Thats why i asked about the head off chris :) you would probably found it easier to crack the headbolts while in the car, or else remove the head first eh (then lift the block out by hand)
Yeah I was over estimeting the job on getting the engine out and the weight tbh frank. Now I have done it once, i will just strip it in the bay. I was too worried I would take days to get it out so feared leaving it in parts. Rust would take hold. Now its done, I see how much can get done in such a short time. Well I learnt it eventually. Will get back later as to the damage, also try and get a photo of the cylinder and the heads for your professional opinion.
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
weird... it was the second piston from the timing wheel.. ring land shot. seems very weak and thin. The headgasket was shot on the 1st cylinder. pics to follow soon
 
OP
OP
SirChris

SirChris

Educated Bodger
ha I wish. need frank to send me a piston.

weird... it was the second piston from the timing wheel.. ring land shot. seems very weak and thin. The headgasket was shot on the 1st cylinder. pics to follow soon
Frank the cylinders seem really clean, was really worried the ringland would of damaged it. YAY. the surfaces were black, that not ok ?
 

frank

Club Member
nah, the bore and rings usually survive ok chris (i reused my rings no probs) you just get a dark stain around the broken bit of piston eh
 
Top