Installing Standalone ECU, need some help please

hi,
as some may have seen i have been trying to install my hawk ecu, i have been posting my questions on the thread that was started to sell the item but i have decided to start a new fresh thread.

ok, so, i have made 80persent of the loom but i still need a few things clearing up if possible:

-What is ECCS and do need to worry about connecting it up? i have found out that it is nissans 'electronic concentrated engine control system' but i still have no idea whether i need to keep it.

-There is a wire that goes to the 'power steering oil pressure switch' from the micra ecu. what should i do with it? there is nothing about power steering on the hawk ecu.

-The IAC valve on the hawk ecu has four wires going to it (stepper's a1, a2, b1 and b2). but in the micra loom there are only two wires, so im not sure what to do there.

-In the hawk wiring diagram there is one wire (ignition out) that has two possible connections as i see it; it could go through a resistor and to the 'base' wire of the power transistor, or it could go strait to the coil, the coil has two wires going to it, a 12v feed and another wire, it would have to be the other wire. (not sure of its function though). THINK I HAVE SORTED THIS QUESTION, BUT IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD, PLEASE DO.

-Lastly, there is a wire that goes to the 'heater blower switch' (LTG/R) is this just a 12v feed when the ignition is on? or is it a power feed for the PCB? or what?

i think thats all my questions for now, i will update this post as they are answered or i get more:D

thank you very much in advance

(i really dont mean to sound rude, but if you are not sure of an answer could you please make it clear that you arnt sure because that way i wont take it as fact, thanks again)

Here is a link to the wiring diaram for the Nissan ECU http://www.fusion-motorsport.co.uk/k11/k11_no-nats.jpg

here is a JPEG of the HAWK diagram, i know its big, but it has to be so you can read it.
View attachment 11394

oh bloomers! just realised that i did start a thread already about this, im so stupid! maybe because i'v got that flu stuff that going round, anyway, if we could stick with this thread that would be good as this one is a a bit clearer with the questions listed like they are.
 
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Noddie
After ALOT of searching i think i may have cracked the problem of the ignition output.
here is what i found...
references:
http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/ignition.shtml
http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10002.

so, my conclution is that the IGT (ignition output signal) should be connected to the 'base' wire of the power transistor to 'turn on' the coil.
and the other wire that comes from the coil tells the ECU that the spark sequence was successful.

this is the theory that i am going with at the moment, but if anyone has a better idea then pray tell.

i have just had a little thought, is the 'power steering oil pressure switch' just to tell the ecu that there is enough pressure in the P/S fluid? sounds right to me.
 

superls

K10 Tuner
post up the hawk diagram and the k11 one then perhaps people with out any experiance with ecu installation but electrical and electronic knowledge (like me) can help out perhaps.
 
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Noddie
i was going to, but one is an adobe reader file and the other is MASSIVE. how can i put up an adobe reader file? i think i can do a link to the nissan (large) diagram.

Here is a link to the Nissan ecu diagram. http://www.fusion-motorsport.co.uk/k11/k11_no-nats.jpg

here is a JPEG of the HAWK diagram, i know its big, but it has to be so you can read it.
HAWK C12_4 Wiring Diagram SMALL.JPG
 
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Noddie
i have just gone out and had a look at my car, the second wire that goes strait to the coil (thinner one), is the same wire (different colour) as the blue wire that people tap into for the tacho signal.

so for future reference, people that dont want loads of wires in their engine bay (looks crap imo) tap into the W/R wire (pin 3) on the ecu for your tacho signal.
 
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Noddie
:( i have just done the stupidest thing!
i connected the HAWK ECU up to the battery the wrong way round! (pos to neg and neg to pos)
does anyone know if i will have damaged it irripairably??

Panic over, i think. it just blew the fuse in the temp power wires im using *wipes sweaty brow and tries to slow beating heart*
 

MSG2

Deactivated Account
I pretty sure that such an ecu would be reverese polarity protected, we all do silly things inadvertently, I once blew my calibra's abs module by jump starting it when its battery went dead as I left the interior light on for over 3 days, and what I did was I had left my ignition switch in the on position, so the dash board lights werev very dim, and as I wired the jump battery carelessly wrong way, there was sparks and smoke came out of the abs module, I killed it!! but luckily my ecu and other modules survived!!

If you replace the fuse and connect it correctly, it should not blow , if it does then you may have damged your ecu, but not neceassarily entirely, you may have damaged just the protection diode, usually a big diode that sits across the supply rails in a reverse direction, so in other words the diode does not normally conduct any current when its positive connects to a positive rail and when its negative side connects to the battery negative, but when you revers the supply accidently, then this diode conducts furiously and blows the fuse, in doing so it safeguards the more sensitive electronic chips, but this diode could go short circuit or become permanent short, such that even if you now change the fuse, and connect it correctly it will keep blowing the fuse,

So if you do get that, then follow the supply rails into the ecu, and look for this protection diode that should sit across the 12v supply rail, the positive of the diode is usually the coloured band close to one end, and should be connected to +12v supply rail after the fuse, and the negative of the diode soldered to negative or ground track, if the diode is shorted out you can check with a multimeter, such that when you connect probes across the diode one way it should not read any conduction (high resitance) and the other way it should read diode's forward voltage usually approx 0.4V to 0.6V cross with your multimeter selected on a diode symbol, any problems let me know, if a diode becomes shorted, you can just take it out of the circuit board and leave it out but I will advice to replace it for next time you accidently reverse the power to it.
 
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Noddie
I pretty sure that such an ecu would be reverese polarity protected, we all do silly things inadvertently, I once blew my calibra's abs module by jump starting it when its battery went dead as I left the interior light on for over 3 days, and what I did was I had left my ignition switch in the on position, so the dash board lights werev very dim, and as I wired the jump battery carelessly wrong way, there was sparks and smoke came out of the abs module, I killed it!! but luckily my ecu and other modules survived!!

If you replace the fuse and connect it correctly, it should not blow , if it does then you may have damged your ecu, but not neceassarily entirely, you may have damaged just the protection diode, usually a big diode that sits across the supply rails in a reverse direction, so in other words the diode does not normally conduct any current when its positive connects to a positive rail and when its negative side connects to the battery negative, but when you revers the supply accidently, then this diode conducts furiously and blows the fuse, in doing so it safeguards the more sensitive electronic chips, but this diode could go short circuit or become permanent short, such that even if you now change the fuse, and connect it correctly it will keep blowing the fuse,

So if you do get that, then follow the supply rails into the ecu, and look for this protection diode that should sit across the 12v supply rail, the positive of the diode is usually the coloured band close to one end, and should be connected to +12v supply rail after the fuse, and the negative of the diode soldered to negative or ground track, if the diode is shorted out you can check with a multimeter, such that when you connect probes across the diode one way it should not read any conduction (high resitance) and the other way it should read diode's forward voltage usually approx 0.4V to 0.6V cross with your multimeter selected on a diode symbol, any problems let me know, if a diode becomes shorted, you can just take it out of the circuit board and leave it out but I will advice to replace it for next time you accidently reverse the power to it.

thanks alot mate:D thats made me feel alot better, it seems to be running fine now i'v changed the fuse so hopefuly as you say, its designed to be Noddie proof:D
its also nice to know im not the only one:p
thanks again for the help,
 
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Noddie
ok, i didnt get round to doing it yesterday, but last night i did a few minor adjustments to the loom and i will start (if not finnish) the installation this morning. i got another loom to fit in my spare micra to make sure it still runs and i will run the Hawk loom along side it for now. just gotta open the hole it the wire wall up a bit for easyer access.

ended up fitting the hawk loom into my micra. but as it turns out, the loom i used to make the hawk loom is different to the one im my car, the plug next to the ecu that go to the dials and power ect are different, and so it the plug that goes to the front wiper motor! so this means more bloody messing about! im getting fed up with this...

also, there is a black box next to the wiper motor that isnt there in the spare micra, is this something to do with nats??
 

joesouthgate

Moderator & JAE Chef
Moderator
Club Member
i think the black box is for the intermitant function on the wipers as mine has it but my gf's mums car doesnt.
 
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Noddie
ffs, thats in the loom too.
what i need is a micra loom of the same year as my car with all the bits (intermitant wipers) that my car has.
i will try to get one from a breakers, last time i got a loom from a breakers they tried to charge me £40!! (i only payed 20). i think i just need a newer loom that i can strip the bits that i need out of.

will go to the breakers on friday hopefuly.
 
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Noddie
well, i got the plugs i needed. just gotta work out how to wire them on,
this is my next question... does anyone know what this is??

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it came with the loom for the hawk but i dont know what it is or where to wire it (i think it is a 'pulse generator' or something to help with the ignition.
any help would be great guys:)
 

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Noddie
found this:
can anyone shed any light of where the wires go?
does anyone know what VR means?
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OP
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Noddie
as far as i can work out, i dont need another ignition module, can anyone think of a reason that the person in in oz who had this installed in his turbo micra would have needed it?

just incase it helps, here is a pic of it installed in his car:
http://www.micra.com.au/images/forcedmicras/17b.jpg

well... i wire in the new plugs, wasnt too difficult, most of the wires were just colour matching and the rest i could do with a multimeter.

put the loom in my car today, i decided to try it without the ingnition module that came with the loom:
the sensors seem to work:D and i heard the fuel pump start up for a few seconds:)
but there was no spark at the plugs:(:(
there was current going to the coil... but im a bit stuck now, maybe i do need the ignition module?
I'm sure Ed could answer some of these question... *cough:)*
 
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Noddie
well, got it connected to a battery and my spare dizzy to bench test it.
my latest theory is that the signal sent out by the cam pos sensor is too weak for the hawk ecu and that the ignition module was used to amplify the signal on the way into the hawk, i think this because i have used a multimeter and there is deffinately a signal comming out of the dizzy, but there is just a constant voltage when i check the ignition output from the hawk.
i am goint to bench test this theory now...
 
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Noddie
Right... i'v cracked the no IGT signal problem!!! after hours and hours and miles of driving to places to ask people about it:glare:
the wire that goes into the hawk ECU that takes the signal from the cam position sensor was in the wrong place in the plug!!! someone had put it in the reluctor picup instead of the hall effect... so i took the pin out and put it in the right place and bob's my uncle (which he is):D a nice 0-5V signal when i turn the disc in the dizzy.
lets just hope i get a spark now *fingers crossed*
 
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Noddie
right well, the loom is back together and ready for another test run... hopefuly i will get it installed tomorrow evening after work *fingers still crossed, finding it hard to type:D*
 
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Noddie
probably no benifit:)
so that i can make the most of any mods i do in the future, and as a way of learning about this side of the car, nothing like on-the-job-learning eh?

so... i installed the loom again today.
good news is i got a spark:)
bad news is the car didnt start:(

so, it was coughing every now and again so it cant be that far off... i think it must be todo with the ecu not getting the timeing in propperly because when i looked for a spark it was there but was very intermitent, like bursts of sparks.
does anyone have an idea why this would be? come on Ed, i know you know:) its not like you would be spoon feeding me info, i have done alot of reasurch myself...
 
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Noddie
anyone? any ideas? could it be the TDC 'little hole' that is confusing the ecu? is there some kind of caliberation that i may need to do?
 
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Noddie
not sure, but it did get me thinking, i have just had a look and the ecu was set to a reluctor pickup, but obviousely mine is a hall. i will try setting it to hall, maybe just maybe that will get the thing working. anyone else got their fingers crossed:D?
 
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Noddie
arha, yeah, good plan, still think its the spark at the moment though as when i checked for a spark it was all over the place. iv got a feeling it may well be the setting from reluctor to hall. but if i get to the stage that there looks to be a good spark but still no firing then i will try putting fuel down the Tb. to be honist though, is fuel sequence that important? if so, how does batching firing work?
 

frank

Club Member
arha, yeah, good plan, still think its the spark at the moment though as when i checked for a spark it was all over the place. iv got a feeling it may well be the setting from reluctor to hall. but if i get to the stage that there looks to be a good spark but still no firing then i will try putting fuel down the Tb. to be honist though, is fuel sequence that important? if so, how does batching firing work?

ed, i assume they are sequenced to inject only on the intake stroke, and i think the modern hdi/commonrail diesels give multiple squirts to reduce emissions (if thats batching ?)
 
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Noddie
ed, i assume they are sequenced to inject only on the intake stroke, and i think the modern hdi diesels give multiple squirts to reduce emissions (if thats batching ?)

i dont think so, batch firing as i understand it is when all the injectors are fired at the same time, the fuel then waits in the inlet for the piston to pull it in. so i dont think its imperitive to the car starting that the injectors are fired at exactly the right time. (i could be wrong though, i have read SO much information in the last 3 months that i cant remeber everything exactly, i will have to re-read all my books:))maybe ed will tell us what the micra uses, but i doubt it somehow.
 
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Noddie
is there any chance that anyone has the base fuel and ignition maps for their car? i would really really like to have a look at them if you have (preferably not a turbo/very highly tuned one:))
 

jabran200

Ex. Club Member
Heres the stock map from nistune. Should work if you copy the values correctly.

micramaps.jpg


Theres two maps for the fuel injection. One is wiht duty cylce and the other is the actual pulsewidth.

Depends what the Hawk uses.
 
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Noddie
:D:D thank you VERY much. do you know what state of tune the car was in that the maps are from? just to give me an idea like.
thanks again mate
 
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Noddie
Well... its been a very long time in which i have done nothing about the standalone installation, but i got a bit done today.
I have done some reading and have decided to cover the small hole in the dizzy sensor disc. hoping to get a more reliable spark.
i have writen in the stock cg13de maps (thanks again jabran200) so atleast i know the maps arn't at fault if the car doesnt run.
i have bench tested my setup again and the spark was still there, and seemed fairly reliable, so i fitted the loom to the car (with the intention of leaving it there for good now) and have been messing about trying to get the car to run.
at first i was getting no spark and fuel from injector #1 only, after about an hour the no spark turned out to be my dizzy (some how stopped working between my bedroom and the car :S ) so i fitted my spare dizzy with the modified disc and the spark returned(Y)
car still not firing up so i turned to fuel, there was a reading of 40ms from injector#1 which seems odd (hope i took the reading right) but nothing from the others so i decided to do as frank suggested and placed a petrol socked air filter over the TB, the car momentarily fired up... but then so did my engine bay as the filter caught fire!! a little shacked and with darkness approaching (working outside) i decided to call it a day and start again tomorrow.....

here starts my rambley rant, you would probably do well to stop reading now....
im not sure atall whats going on with only #1injector working, in the very slighty helpful manual that comes with the hawk ecu it talks about injectors 1 & 2 and setting them up but no 3 or 4. i think these might refer to 'injector banks' for if you want to run secondary injectors for high load and whatnot as there is a seconary fuel map also. but there in the wiring diagram there is just wires going to 4 injectors as you would imagen, named 1, 2, 3 and 4, and no mention or secondary injectors:S

also, im not really sure that the dizzy disc should have 4 holes?? if it rotates twice per crank rev. why have 4 holes and not 2? saying that though, on cranking the ecu is reading 250rpm which seems right, so it must be reading the signals right...right?:D depends whats left i guess!
i tell you what, if i can get this car running im a bloody genious! this stuff is complicated!
anyway, will try to update tomorrow, would love to get the injectors working...
 
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Noddie
but my thoughts are that the four holes would cause 8 trigger signals per crank rev, when surly you would only need 4? but the nissan ecu must use 4 holes for a reason.
i have the capability to set up the injectors in any way, sequential or batch (simultaneous). but the softwear only lists injector#1 and injector#2 which i really dont understand. all i can think is that it refers to banks of injectors and 'injector#1' is the main 4.
anyway, enough theorising, im going to go over to where the car is and start work....
update tonight.

just thought, i think i see what you mean frank, because there is two trigger points per cylinder rev and therefor 8 per crank rev.
 

frank

Club Member
the cam/dizzy is running at 1/2 crank speed tho eh :)
and if ga16 ecu,s are pretty much plug-n-play, then that ga workshop manual data might apply to cg,s too
 
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Noddie
the cam/dizzy is running at 1/2 crank speed tho eh :)
and if ga16 ecu,s are pretty much plug-n-play, then that ga workshop manual data might apply to cg,s too

OHHH! haha! silly me, there i am thinking it turns at twice the speed... thank you frank.

hang on... are you sure? then you would only get two triggers per crank rev? eh?
 
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Noddie
Update:
so, despite being harrassed by my grandparents about how i should get someone to help me, i managed to get it started!!!.......sort of:D
the small hole in the dizzy had to be uncovered :s and the setting had to be messed about with. i had to do a bit of trail and error with the Trigger BTDC, but i have managed to get it down to what seems like a fuel problem. it will idle when petrol is sprayed into the tb (i took the cold air tubes off and sprayed it directly onto the back of the filter so that the fuel would atomise better). and once you get it above 1500rpm by adding fuel to the tb it will run on what seems like 2 or 3 cylinders but then if you let it drop bellow 1500rpm it dies. my thinking is that it is some injectors not opening, and probably the timing is out a bit.
BUT SHE RUNS!!!
so im happy
it was so so good to hear it running on the hawk ecu, even if it did sound like a VW camper:D
so some questions... does it sound like the timing is out? or just a fuel problem?
also, on the laptop it seemed to be running a constant 40degrees advance? no matter what i changed in the settings???
 

frank

Club Member
nice one ed (Y) you,ll get there in the end
40 sounds too much to me, i would have thought 15 at idle, about 20-25 at 2000, and 30 from 2500 onwards ?
 
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Noddie
nice one ed (Y) you,ll get there in the end
40 sounds too much to me, i would have thought 15 at idle, about 20-25 at 2000, and 30 from 2500 onwards ?
yeah, definately not right, the wierd thing is that it didnt seem to change when i adjusted the timing... im sure i will be able to work it out, the main thing is that it runs and now i have some data to work with rather than just complete guesses.

static timing is listed in the haynes, which I can check tonight for you.

I'll also check the stock CG13 ignition map for you.

thanks dude! thats great of you:D
do you think you could post up the map, would like to compare it to the other one i have.

thanks for the help guys!
now i feel like im getting somewhere i really want to keep working on it.
 
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Noddie
no worries mate, dont rush:D i wont be doing anything to the car for a few days anyway as im going to be busy with work...
 
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Noddie
As you can imagine, this subject has been taking up most of my spare thinking power lately:D
i have come to the conclution that the injectors that are mentioned in the softwear refer to 'banks' of injectors. because if they refered to the individual injectors then there is only wires for 4 whereas the ecu can be used on engines of up to 10 cylinders. also, there is only 2 injectors metioned in the softwear. so i am going to connect every injector to the #1 injector wire in the loom, this would explain the engine running on two cylinders.
i have ordered a timing light off amazon for £20 which seemed like a good deal:)

once i know all the injectors are firing i will look into the timing.
 
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Noddie
So it now idles and revs up pretty well, the reason it was only firing on two cylinders was that i made a misstake with the injector wiring and so only two were working.
that is sorted now (bodged untill i have time to propperly change the loom)
i also realised that i have made a mistake with the wire that goes to the cooling fan so i need to sort that. the car got to 93 C before i realised:p
still a bit lumpy on idle and low revs, got the timing light out and it seems that it misses a spark now and again, more on #4 and #3 than 1 and 2o_O
also, could someone tell me what this means: when i checked the timing at idle, there are six notches, and it was pointing to the one 4 from the left (it had 3 on the left and 2 on the right of it) do you know what timing this is?
the ecu said it was delivering around 30degrees but i cant remember very well, and it didnt change when i tryed to advance/retard it. anothero_O

anyway, seems to be getting better all the time, i just cant wait for a wideband controler!!
 
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