K11SS turbo project

so today i was at ava n i got the car mapped, it ran 118 at the wheels n i will post up the pics of graph to let u all see, but now it doesnt start. wen i looked at the apexi it said the air flow was at 97% with jus ignition on so i guess wn i try to start it i jus get it floding engine due to it being so rich.

i tested this on 3 TB n i got 97% on all 3 n the guys who tested car said the 3 tbs seems to be working from jus a quick check

so any ideas?

stephen








ps this post is a shorter version of wat i wrote earlier but the IE decided to Not Responde wen i clicked it to submit so im sorry i will correct it tommorow but this is the jus of it

i got the car running again, the apexi was on the wrong sensor type, it was on flap when it should be hotwire

stephen

Nice one mate. Good to see the turbo up and running, definately need to get a wee shot.

scottish-sr said:

Nice one mate. Good to see the turbo up and running, definately need to get a wee shot.

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yes this can be done, just need to ask for a date, im quite bust on msn most nights-lol

think im gonna take tyhe car off the road jus now n have it covered up so i can save up for new manifold snd exhaust system

stephen

Good plan to take it off the road and get it all sorted for next spring. Will be fast once your finished with it mate.

haha it will be fast if i just leave her , she scares a few people as is so i might jus smooth out the power of her n more reliable then turn up boost wen im bored of that-lol still got 0.4 bar of boost can add hehe

stephen

what psi is it running at the moment...and do you have a list o parts on the car... ie...is it on standard injectors? is it running a thicker head gasket?...etc etc

thanks mate..

K11SS said:

i got the car running again, the apexi was on the wrong sensor type, it was on flap when it should be hotwire

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Is it literally running on just an Apexi S-AFC? Does it have any kind of ignition control?

sounds to me like you've brought it and cant afford the insurance on it, i might be wrong but thats what it sounds like.

Dan, it only has S-AFC and the ignition has other wise been retarded on the distributor I think.

From what Stephen told me it was 1.6 injectors. As for the head gasket, when I spoke to Mr Grassie, he said he put another gasket in to make it thicker.

The comment about insurance, he drove it over to the RR and also picked the car up and drove it home, no point driving the car about when its not 100% and maybe making things worse, may aswell spend time over the winter getting it in top nick.

Some of you should stop giving Stephen such a hard time about this, he is only after some advice.

If a turbo car is ill it should never be driven anyway. It results in lots of damage costing many times more.

Fordy said:

sounds to me like you've brought it and cant afford the insurance on it, i might be wrong but thats what it sounds like.

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no this is not true, when i spokr to the guys who rolling road my car at AVA they said i need to look at seriously altering the exhaust design as it may BURST INTO FLAMES AT ANY TIME

they said this as it melted my dipstick, so it is coming off road to prevent another engine fire and let me save for both exhaust and ecu improvements.

curently the car has the dizzy turned bk 9 degrees i was told by andrew but i will be testing this and it is on an apexi safc, which i am changing to fit an apex power fc for more refined tuning. also the head is sitting on a 2mm aluminium spacer plate with 2 headgaskets, 1 at the top and 1 at the bottom.

as for the fuelling i have a walbro fuel pump toan fse boost sensitive fuel pressure regulator and 1.6 injectors.

any question or pic requests feel free to leave and i will get back to u all

stephen

Cripes, fresh from the world of Skylines to hear people just turning back the dizzy on a turbo car to get it to stop detting - very dangerous, very scary - a budget piggyback like an eManage or a DIY Megasquirt kit isnt exactly expensive when compared to the price of an engine rebuild.

Retarding on the dizzy brings ignition back through the entire map - the whole range and while it obviously stops detonation on full load, the knock on effect (pardon the pun) will be retarded ignition on cruise and light load also, sustained driving on cruise with retarded ignition will build up astronomical exhaust gas temperatures and melt pretty much everything around the turbocharger, upto and including its turbine blade tips if the EGT gets high enough. I've seen under bonnet on an S14 that was running about 12 degrees retarded - it had been so hot that it had melted the scuttle panel and was discoloring the paint on the bonnet.

Get that PowerFC in sooner rather than later!

micracharge said:

Cripes, fresh from the world of Skylines to hear people just turning back the dizzy on a turbo car to get it to stop detting - very dangerous, very scary - a budget piggyback like an eManage or a DIY Megasquirt kit isnt exactly expensive when compared to the price of an engine rebuild.

Retarding on the dizzy brings ignition back through the entire map - the whole range and while it obviously stops detonation on full load, the knock on effect (pardon the pun) will be retarded ignition on cruise and light load also, sustained driving on cruise with retarded ignition will build up astronomical exhaust gas temperatures and melt pretty much everything around the turbocharger, upto and including its turbine blade tips if the EGT gets high enough. I've seen under bonnet on an S14 that was running about 12 degrees retarded - it had been so hot that it had melted the scuttle panel and was discoloring the paint on the bonnet.

Get that PowerFC in sooner rather than later!

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all of which i agre with and so the reason it is coming off the road

K11SS said:

all of which i agre with and so the reason it is coming off the road

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Good man - best to lean on the side of caution - good luck with it, should be as mad as a bag of squirrels when its running properly I would think

i just emailed DP motorsport on a price for the apexi power FC with the FC commander unit so hope to have a reply soon so i can get a move on with it

stephen

K11SS, For all the work to fit a power FC you in my opinion would be just as well to put e-manage on it. It will easily cope with what you have there and more, and be a whole lot cheaper than getting a power FC and finding someone up there to fit and map it.

I was about to ask if Apexi made a PFC for the K11! I couldnt find it on any of my Apexi application sheets. I presume its for something with a painfully similar ECCS pinout?

the garage i use for my tuning(haha done it twice now n im saying that) will map it for me, ws told guy there is 1 of the best in uk... which i am not claiming to be true but the car does run really nice now after he worked on it.

anyway they had a catalogue there which stated there was 1 for the k11 cg13de, so i will be finding it n using it.

to ed how much work do u think will need done to fit the apexi power fc?

n for the record the garage quoted me the same price on both emanage n apexi but did also say emanage is a crap piece of hardware as it is a piggy back. they would do the work but with the apexi it will work better n will be much more controlable

stephen

If the garage said the e-manage is crap then they have no idea what they are talking about, no matter how good they claim or are said to be. If there is an apexi for the K11 then it will be a plug straight in, and its just a case of mapping it. However if not then they will have to do alot of work to get it in. An e-manage blue can be fitted in about an hour by somone who knows the car, and you would get close to what you wanted in a couple of hours mapping.

One aspect I do find highly suspect - Apexi DO NOT list a PowerFC for the K11, even their specialist applications unit AP Engineering do not make one - this is from the 2006 Apexi dealer catalogue (which we get sent every year as it is updated), which in nearly three years of tuning Japanese cars for a living, has never been wrong.

I would suggest caution. There is simply no way it would be worth Apexi's time or trouble to make a unit specific to the K11, as there just arent enough people in the world prepared to put £600+ into engine management for these cars. Quite where they are getting that information I have no idea. But believe me, they dont make a PowerFC for the K11.

joanne used a gtir power fc, with a sensors - dizzy, transfered over.

go for the e-manage, scrap the apexi

sounds like abodge job to be honest..... done on a budget and not finished....

to have the ingnition retarded on a car like this....is as has allready been said....dangerous.

the e-manage blue has run micras with well over 200bhp...and very well too...

it is what i will be running...

the head spacer with two head gaskets.... good idea...i might get one made for me..

and for a garage like that to say the emanage is crap...stear clear...biased oppinions like that on engine tuning can cause sooo many problems.. you need to talk to someone who has used personaly both and who can compare the advantages and dissadvantages......ie...ED

and.....please dont drive it till its 100%...cos youll only blow it up....or set it on fire .....again!!
lol

good luck...

stephen good luck with this!! i will pop round 1 day to see it!

that garage has a very very good rep actually they know what there talking about!

but not about the e-manage..... they have probebly never used it...

dout it very much, give them a call then? ask them some questions

theres no need...... i know what both can do...as does Ed.... and for them to make a sweeping statement like "the emanage is crap" when they obviously have a trade account with apexi......what would be the point.

they have probebly never ever used one nor know how to fit one...
they probs dont even deal with Greddy or Trust...

so they bad mouth it so that their customers will buy their Apexi PFCC
its called business....

Happens with things like piggy back ECUs all the time.. Also dont forget that head spacers also upset the cam timing.

are all people like this, 1 garage says yes n every1 else says they dont know wat they are talking bout? id like to stop this slating of the garage whicj does have a good reputation n they do some great cars, on sunday there was a RS rolling road day with over 30 odd cars, all highly modded with the ava stickers on them etc the guy in the garage is now working on a starlet to run the 1/4 mile in 12 seconds, so he does know what he is doing also THEY DO NOT HAVE ACCOUNTS WITH APEXI it is the only 1 they use tho as it is the best, the guy knows how to all sorts of ecu n engine management systems, stop slating it n dont presume Ed is a know it all too, has ed used the apexi power fc?

im fed up on u all #####ing bout what is best, i do not want a piggy back, i want stand alone n willing to pay for it as it is the best !!!

shut up bout ur crappy emanage, if u look ed is a stockist for it so he does say it is goods for it, when i hear from a guy with no links to any parts that is crap id trust the guy impartial. i do not doubt it will work jsu it wont work as good as the apexi is all!

so if there is no apexi for the K11 which STANDALONE ECU will do the job BEST!!!

stephen

Here here Stephen.

AVA have a great rep up here and all that Stephen says is true, they don't have accounts with Apexi, simply deal with them as they are the best.

go on my son!!!

Well, if this counts, I map cars all day, every single day, I have done Japanese cars (Nissan Skylines specifically, but also many Supras, Imprezas, Evos and 200SX's) for the last 3 years on a Dynapack dyno, and for six years prior to that, SAAB turbo and NA engines using a Superflow engine dyno (which included having to reverse engineer the Trionic engine management system first). Over the last couple of years accolades include the JUN Super Lemon R2, Rocket Ronnies R33 (9.7 1/4 and over 200mph in a standing mile - full interior and aircon still present), Tim Websters R34 Nur (high 9 second road car, full interior), production maps for the Ariel Atom Supercharged, MSC Honda-Powered-Elise conversions, the Javan R1 (Look it up on Google)... The list goes on.

I map HKS Fcon S, SZ, iS, V-Pro, Apexi PowerFC (Using Apexi Power Excel and FC-Datalogit software), Emanage, Emanage Ultimate, AEM, GEMS, MoTeC M4, M48 and M800 and pretty much anything that you can get the software for. I have been doing this for years and years and years, infact it is pretty much all I have ever done. So for what its worth, I would take a PowerFC over an eManage given the choice, however, I would agree that an eManage is simple to install, and while somewhat crude in operation, does a fine job on mildly tuned vehicles. Either would work great in your application I am sure, but as there is no PowerFC for the K11 it would take some work to get it in - but I would put myself on the line and say that ultimately it would do a slightly better job than an eManage as its map resolution is superior and doesnt rely on the standard ECU in any way. IMHO.

That is my 2p worth. Oh, and for reference, there are no "official" Apexi dealers in europe, everyone that imports is merely that, just an importer. There were talks of us becoming an offical Apexi Power Excel centre, but that is all still to be discussed. E&OE.

thanks for your input n no need to brag -lol some amazing work there, will be awesome to see ur micra wen it is done

so micracharge as u are the resident mapper which standalone ecu would u recommend i get for the k11, or are u saying there is none for the k11 so i need to get a pig

thanks dan

stephen

K11SS said:

thanks for your input n no need to brag -lol some amazing work there, will be awesome to see ur micra wen it is done

so micracharge as u are the resident mapper which standalone ecu would u recommend i get for the k11, or are u saying there is none for the k11 so i need to get a pig

thanks dan

stephen

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I am not bragging at all, believe me I would have made the list 50 times longer if I wanted to brag - I am merely making the point that I do this all day every day and I am not just some clown trying to sell you things you dont want or need - I am impartial, it makes no odds to me whatsoever what you do with your car. I am merely giving you my advise, from nearly ten years of first hand experience - feel free to heed or ignore it as you wish.

Depending on how keen you are feeling with money, I would personally try and get a Motec M4 or M48 for it - it is a beautiful piece of kit with super fuel and ignition control, it is however - VERY expensive. To really want to do the job nicely, there are alternatives of course, Omex, Haltech, Link Electro to name a few, then there is a great looking home-brew ECU which I am tempted to try called a MegaSquirt - its quite a project to make it, but its fantastically good value and has a lot of features - I am thinking of offering a build and install service for these units infact. So maybe watch this space.

In the end, I am just trying to help you - but my help or advise would mean nothing without some backup or weight of experience - hence the list of things I have done over the years.

K11SS said:

are all people like this, 1 garage says yes n every1 else says they dont know wat they are talking bout? id like to stop this slating of the garage whicj does have a good reputation n they do some great cars, on sunday there was a RS rolling road day with over 30 odd cars, all highly modded with the ava stickers on them etc the guy in the garage is now working on a starlet to run the 1/4 mile in 12 seconds, so he does know what he is doing also THEY DO NOT HAVE ACCOUNTS WITH APEXI it is the only 1 they use tho as it is the best, the guy knows how to all sorts of ecu n engine management systems, stop slating it n dont presume Ed is a know it all too, has ed used the apexi power fc?

im fed up on u all #####ing bout what is best, i do not want a piggy back, i want stand alone n willing to pay for it as it is the best !!!

shut up bout ur crappy emanage, if u look ed is a stockist for it so he does say it is goods for it, when i hear from a guy with no links to any parts that is crap id trust the guy impartial. i do not doubt it will work jsu it wont work as good as the apexi is all!

so if there is no apexi for the K11 which STANDALONE ECU will do the job BEST!!!

stephen

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dont think theres any need for that..
i was only stating that if a company says that "this and that are crappy" when they are PROVEN TO WORK VERY VERY WELL then i will stick up for it... but i know of no one that has used a stand alone ECU for the micra simply because it either cant be done due to the standard nissan ecu....or its just not a financialy viable option... (ie the ECU will cost about 10x more than your cars worth..)

but for my £400 the emanage does its job perfectly well, and has done for people running upwards of 200bhp...and unless your wanting more and more expense and more and more problems (ie having to find someone willing to keep plugging away with setups of an untested system) then try a stand alone...

i dont know if a stand alone will work or not..but if your gonna be the ginniepig then please be my guest..

but never ever ever tell me to shut up.....!!!

mon the ava tuners!!! as i said good luck stephen they will look after you, tell them you know matt wit the skyline they done all the work on his

lol....just thaught..

"dya AVA micra?"....lol

sorry my sence of humour is a bit weird..

and again, good luck realy.... but if you wont take advise on what will work.. then i can see a realy good project if you prove us wrong...or a realy bad one if you dont..

either way.... have some fun...lol

tbh you should stop slating ed for him recommending something,

the tuning place you take it to probably use the apexi alot so knows it well same goes for ed he uses emanage alot so knows it well its all down to tuner preference

i recommend that you listen to advice given from ed and micracharge as the know what they are on about, the more advice and infomation from different places might end up saving you money or making you more bhp and torque

micracharge, who do you work for?

I work for Abbey Motorsport. Some love us, some hate us. Its the same for all tuners I guess.

btw, the best ecu for your car is the nissan ecu, if you can find someone who knows what they are doing you are on a winner, but not many people are too good with the nissan ecu.

if you have no budget go for the apexi power fc, motec or something like, speak to your mapper, and what they are happy with - not the safc, its not a good unit.

do not be pushed by people on here, only take advice

if you are on a budget e-manage ultimate is a good choice

really, interesting, you worked at abbey long?

your the wrong end of the country for me to dead with...

Been at Abbeys for three years now, prior to that I worked for Abbott Racing Motorsport in my home county of Essex. Been a good few years on the ol' turbo weapons of various different types

micra_pete I notice you have done some hacking with the ECCS in another thread, I have software that is "template" based that can edit the Skyline ECCS boxes and some S13 and S14 units, being template based it might be possible to make a suitable template for the CG boxes if you know the locations of the maps, I have a spare one with the engine I have bought, might rip it open and take a peek!

i've a fair bit of experience now with nearly all nissan ecus, if you wanted some advice i'd be happy to help

but to be honest the cost investment to edit the nissan ecu's properly is mucg more than customer to buy a apexi power fc!

what software is it if you dont mind me asking

micra_pete said:

i've a fair bit of experience now with nearly all nissan ecus, if you wanted some advice i'd be happy to help

but to be honest the cost investment to edit the nissan ecu's properly is mucg more than customer to buy a apexi power fc!

what software is it if you dont mind me asking

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Its something I found on a Japanese website, I believe its just called RomEditor (pretty descriptive eh?!) - it was freeware and mostly in Japanese but found a little english translation, its certainly useful for the early R32 boxes where the Eprom is just a 27C256 or 512. But quite right as you say, the hardware to do later Nissan boxes is VERY expensive, and generally it all seems to be Japanese.

I recall a catalogue we were sent a few months back from a company called "Grid", they offer a complete reprogramming solution for all Nissan ECU's, but sadly the software is only available in Japanese. Was real pricy too.

What line of work are you in to have been tangled up with ECCS boxes!?

i have a copy of rom editor - , its a simple dirty little programme, but its nice for a editor.

i have contact at grid,, however i use someone else for the hardware side of my ecu's, as you say grid are expensive, however i have some of their stuff and it is all good class products.

i deal with someone at techtom too, my name seems to get banded about a little these days

in regard to how i got started, a few years ago i became interested in my ecu, i managed to work out how the nissan ecu's tick, there was no information out there for the micra, outside of japan especially, so i had to start from scratch, im pretty good with them these days. i have an understanding partner...

So you are offering Micra remaps and stuff on the standard ecus? Or just for your own purposes?

(Sorry about the thread hijack, its fairly on topic!)

a little bit of both

i'm small time but i do offer "remaps" for any nissan ecu if i am asked .

Well, what an unusual skill to find languishing in the world of micra... An english ECCS programmer. Crazy stuff.

Good for you sir, nice that someone has put the time into the ECCS over here, I always felt tempted but its a total minefield and I never even knew where to start. With the SAAB stuff (Trionic) I did years back I had a small headstart in that the processor used was a 68k Motorola series (68332), and back in those days I was an Amiga nerd, so I had 68k disassembly tools that totally took their management code back to its roots! Wrote out the checksum, immobilizers and all sorts, Mr. SAAB wasnt too impressed thats for sure!

Well looks like I missed out on quite alot this evening.

I think some members (K11SS in particular) should grow up and consider themselves very lucky about the present company the MSC has. It is not an understatment to say that Dan (micracharge) is one of the most experienced uk mappers there is, you are making a very bad decision indeed to knock anything he says. Its no joke that he puts all experence myself and anyone else has here to shame.

K11SS a final thing if you make another such outburst you will find yourself removed from the forums for a while, you are already treading a thin line, you couldn't pay elsewhere for the kind of info your being given freely here. Oh since you asked I have mapped PFCs on Pulsar's and Evos (including D-jet versions)

Back to topic however, I have played with rom edit. I got hold of a few Pulsar, 200sx etc daughter boards which I had a look at. The problem is that realtime mapping is (unless you have decent ICE software - which I must admit in an application like this I have not used) not straight forward since its not realtime, so unless you just want to change airflow type, injectors size rev limits etc there offers no real advantage.