Tomei Poncams for CG**, thoughts?

johnbr6

Club Member
won't happen for a long time, but browsing CG10 in yahoo auctions I come across Tomei Poncams.

Someone on the AOC forum runs an n15 Almera N15 GTi with poncams (and some other bolt on mods) and he says from his experience they are the best bolt in camshafts for the engine

has anyone on this forum fitted these cams, and what are your thoughts?

Other questions are

Is there a company that sell adjuastable cam sprokets
Is there a NISTUNE available for the ecu's of a micra
Are the CG** roller or non roller rocker engines?
 

Stani1029

Club Member
Is tomei poncam a different make from just a tomei? If not and its the only type i used to have a set years back!
 
We've got Tomei cams in the rally car and they would be pretty good for a fast road car. They're not too lumpy and peak power is at about 7500rpm iirc.
To get the best from them you would want a remap at the very least or you'd be wasting their potential. Good thing is they're new cams so setting them up is easy, no need for special shims.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Moderator
Club Member
I think yours was 93.9bhp @7400rpm. We used to run the similar NME 254deg cams when we were on the standard inlet manifold and they were a very nice cam, particularly with an optimized ECU to support them.......even better with a compression increase.

Chickenwaahoo - we made 99.5bhp @ 7250rpm initially, (Dyno Dynamics), more after swapping out the heavy weight 80w140 LSD oil for a 75w90 and actually having air in the tyres, (we only had something silly like 18psi in them initially.....woops!). Torque was practically the same as yours up until 5000rpm when we picked up some torque. All on a CG13 stock long block too. The aim was to see if 100bhp/liter was possible from a stock long block, which is doable, (disconnecting the alt would probably back that). Now that's done it's game on for something much more radical ;)
 

frank

Club Member
its still a lot of bucks/bang tho imo fwn my 1311 made 109hp (timeslips to legitimise) with an £80 reprofile inlet cam (with 2 x stock shims) and some leftover 1.0 pistons
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
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its still a lot of bucks/bang tho imo fwn my 1311 made 109hp (timeslips to legitimise) with an £80 reprofile inlet cam (with 2 x stock shims) and some leftover 1.0 pistons
Even more so on a CG10. Better off shoehorning in a CG13DE or CGA3 crankshaft and a set of rods to turn it into a 1275 or 1311cc motor.

A few more mods required in addition to a set of re-profiles & pistons to crack that 109bhp though ;)
 

frank

Club Member
A few more mods required in addition to a set of re-profiles & pistons to crack that 109bhp though ;)
the SR20 t/b and QG injectors did,nt add a lot of hp tbh, they just suited the stock ecu map by chance.
the the exh mods helped i guess, its just that (to keep it on topic :grinning:) unlike his LoRdship on here we dont all have money trees :) and i,ll wager that even the members that have spent £500+ on cams, in hindsight would,nt do it again
 

tomwest

Club Member
when you say "stock long block", have you changed pistons and con rods or just pistons? i know the pistons change the compression ratio, but would changing the con-rods to shorter ones help? i know this will reduce stroke and compression, but if you're putting high comp pistons in, surely a largerr capacity would help as well.....?
 

Low Rider

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when you say "stock long block", have you changed pistons and con rods or just pistons? i know the pistons change the compression ratio, but would changing the con-rods to shorter ones help? i know this will reduce stroke and compression, but if you're putting high comp pistons in, surely a largerr capacity would help as well.....?
@Tomwest
When I say stock long block I mean standard head, crank, rods, pistons, so nothing is changed with the exception of camshafts, (so it's a little white lie perhaps on our part). Since you have a CG13DE already you already have shorter conrods compared to the CG10DE of johnbr6. Aside from the pain of the wrist pins on the conrods, (press fit), swapping in a set of CG10DE pistons into a CG13DE is a great way to gain torque everywhere and support a camshaft change, (if a little invasive).

Keeping on topic, (while keeping tongue firmly in cheek), unlike Frank we don't have copious amounts of spare time growing on trees, so bolt-ins and bolt-ons which can be easily removed come selling time are a valid consideration, especially if it's a daily driver. Also, the majority of cars on here get broken for parts and converted back to standard in order to get sold on, so anything invested, (time OR money), is an important factor. No egg sucking intended ;)

@Frank
No-one in their right mind is going to argue that an £80 set of re-grinds and some acquired shims doesn't make financial sense compared to a set of £700 cams imported from Japan FFS
 

solarice

Ex. Club Member
Im guessing its the exchange rate / limited numbers produced, thats generating the posted £700 price?

Poncam is just the type...which iirc is the only option for the k11 etc.
 

Seb_

Give me some frogs.
Site Supporter
Im guessing its the exchange rate / limited numbers produced, thats generating the posted £700 price?

Poncam is just the type...which iirc is the only option for the k11 etc.



Nothing to add.
 

Low Rider

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lol, prices have indeed gone way up then eh. :(
Yup, anything from Japan is at a premium now, the exchange rate is 1/2 what it was at it's peak and coupled with duty and shipping on the lousy exchange rate you effectively pay double the duty when it lands too. It doesn't deter 'lords' from importing stuff over though lol ;)

You know you we should really plan a proper track day sometime in 2012 and show some k11 domination eh
 

solarice

Ex. Club Member
Yup, anything from Japan is at a premium now, the exchange rate is 1/2 what it was at it's peak and coupled with duty and shipping on the lousy exchange rate you effectively pay double the duty when it lands too. It doesn't deter 'lords' from importing stuff over though lol ;)
lol, yeah i stopped properly looking ages ago at the exchange rates...does seem i acquired my import parts at the best time. :)

You know you we should really plan a proper track day sometime in 2012 and show some k11 domination eh
Yeah i'd love to see all the micras out in force :) ...only micra i've took out on track is the one on GT5 haha.
 

frank

Club Member
one member on here did donnington, santapod, shakies, prescott and curborough last year :wasntme:
some competition would indeed be nice :p
 

Low Rider

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one member on here did donnington, santapod, shakies, prescott and curborough last year :wasntme:
some competition would indeed be nice :p
Quite a few members attended several track days, which was pretty good for 2011, but nothing was really coordinated and even when they were, after arranging one of the 2011 SP meets well in advance, only Hugh and I showed, so I know exactly what you mean by a lack of competition :(

We will have to collectively make sure something is sorted in that case. Unlike POD meets, at least track days require money down so it limits the field but eliminates the classic last minute back outs which have plagued previous meets.

We, in particular, will have to make sure we can pass the noise limits though to avoid disappointment ;)
 

karlj

Club Member
I don't know about other members but the nearest track to me is Castle Combe the rest are miles away and the cost for fuel would be a nightmare
 

Low Rider

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I don't know about other members but the nearest track to me is Castle Combe the rest are miles away and the cost for fuel would be a nightmare
We should make a track day thread. Castle Combe is only 85miles from where I keep my car, so I will happily attend and given a 100dBA noise limit at 4500rpm that should be doable too.
 

karlj

Club Member
Sounds like an idea, admittedly I won't be attending any in a "competitive" manner anytime soon but I'll happily spectate
 
flywheel chickenwaahoo :) and (unlike many hp claims), 15.4 sec timeslips to back it up
The 93.9bhp quoted above in my (sorry Woz) rally car is wheel bhp.

The flywheel bhp was around the 125bhp mark iirc.

That's a cga with a stock block, stock head (apart from Tomei cams) and ITBs.
 

frank

Club Member
The 93.9bhp quoted above in my (sorry Woz) rally car is wheel bhp.

The flywheel bhp was around the 125bhp mark iirc.

That's a cga with a stock block, stock head (apart from Tomei cams) and ITBs.
which just proves my point about dubious dyno figures, my last 2 dyno runs gave transmission losses @ about 12hp, 80 whp/92bhp when running 16.1 sec 1/4 mile times, and (97 or 98 i forget which) whp and 109bhp when running 15.4 secs.
yet your given 31hp transmission losses ?? :eek:
 
which just proves my point about dubious dyno figures, my last 2 dyno runs gave transmission losses @ about 12hp, 80 whp/92bhp when running 16.1 sec 1/4 mile times, and (97 or 98 i forget which) whp and 109bhp when running 15.4 secs.
yet your given 31hp transmission losses ?? :eek:
25% transmission loss on my engine does sound very high, seeing as typical FWD losses are around the 15 to 20% mark, but your losses at only 10% for the 98/109 engine are on the very low side of low. That's why I try to quote wheel figures. Reading how you feel about dubious dyno figures it seems odd you choose to quote flywheel figures.

Here are some more numbers, how come your engine improvements gained you 20% more fbhp (went from 92 to 109bhp) yet your 1/4 mile time only improved by 4% (16.1s to 15.4s) those two don't tally either ? ? fwn
 

davey1991

If its not scrubbing, its not low enough.
A 20% power increase will not yield an equal time improvement. 4% seems very reasonable.
 

frank

Club Member
A 20% power increase will not yield an equal time improvement. 4% seems very reasonable.
lol yes :grinning: 50hp 1.0 k11,s usually do about 18 sec,s, but a 100hp k11 will never do 9 sec,s eh fwn (dave bulls little bandit did 12 sec,s with 400hp iirc)
 

Low Rider

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which just proves my point about dubious dyno figures, my last 2 dyno runs gave transmission losses @ about 12hp, 80 whp/92bhp when running 16.1 sec 1/4 mile times, and (97 or 98 i forget which) whp and 109bhp when running 15.4 secs.
yet your given 31hp transmission losses ?? :eek:
2 different dynos - not exactly comparable though?

Funnily enough someone a while back posted up some figures showing something like a 30 odd bhp loss and it was traced to a dodgy gearbox, car went back on the dyno and showed an improvement and performed better, so they do have their used other than pub bragging rights ;)
 

frank

Club Member
2 different dynos - not exactly comparable though?
makes no difference whatever dyno fwn the operator will print whatever figures you want to hear lol :p
you only have to read the numerous posts on AOC regarding their group dyno meets, and the wildly different figures that the same cars get each time.
a 300hp 2 ton m series bm may well have 25% losses (you try pushing one :grinning:) but a small 100hp hatchback will be nearer to 10% losses imo.
friction increases exponentially to power surely ? (ie, 3 x the hp gets 9 x the friction ?)
 

Low Rider

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makes no difference whatever dyno fwn the operator will print whatever figures you want to hear lol :p
you only have to read the numerous posts on AOC regarding their group dyno meets, and the wildly different figures that the same cars get each time.
a 300hp 2 ton m series bm may well have 25% losses (you try pushing one :grinning:) but a small 100hp hatchback will be nearer to 10% losses imo.
friction increases exponentially to power surely ? (ie, 3 x the hp gets 9 x the friction ?)
WHP FTW. You only have to do back to back runs in 3rd, 4th and 5th gear to see how wildly estimated flywheel figures will vary and how robust WHP is in comparison. At best, if things are in the ball park that's about as good as it gets.

Based on a lot of dyno testing, backed up by NME, you're looking at somewhere around 18-22bhp for a CG13DE tranny as a guide. Anything higher or lower can be taken with some salt ;)
 

frank

Club Member
WHP FTW. You only have to do back to back runs in 3rd, 4th and 5th gear to see how wildly estimated flywheel figures will vary and how robust WHP is in comparison.
nah, 1/4 mile slip and weighbridge slip FTW (no "human error" then :p)
 

karlj

Club Member
You two should get together and go to a reputable dyno

It would save the ####ing competition :grinning:
 
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