Problem with the ST FOUND :(

Duncan said:
if you haven't changed the turbo or computer/tune...standard thickness for sure. you don't need more lag from the turbo
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The turbo is still stock as far as i am aware, it has been remapped my Ed (correct if in am wrong Ed please?) and it has some induction pipework and inter cooler which may make a difference, i will be running boost at 0.9 - 1.0 bar no more

sorry to sounds stupid but whats the C/R Frank?
 
imp124 said:
The turbo is still stock as far as i am aware, it has been remapped my Ed (correct if in am wrong Ed please?) and it has some induction pipework and inter cooler which may make a difference, i will be running boost at 0.9 - 1.0 bar no more

sorry to sounds stupid but whats the C/R Frank?
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compression ratio steve, it,ll raise it a little (not as much as my 3mm skim has tho lol, so dont worry too much)
 
ok, sorry about that frank, im not having it skimmed massively just a quick face up but i still dont know what thickness to go with, it is a log way off before i will need it but i just like to get everything sorted in my head. Im so sad ive drawn up a list to do and pricing :D

Will see it at next years car shows ;)
 
Should be a great build if you get the parts into it you need I really enjoyed building mine back when I did, slightly nervous aswell though I really wanted it to be perfect the garage was like an operating room it was so clean, I could have done with some more specialist tools but it did the job
 
solarice said:
:laugh: been there done that, even had it up on the wall as a check list. :)

good luck with the rebuild.
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ah great so im not going mad then :D

im kind of looking forward to it but not for two main reasons:

1. all the turbo engine looks a mass of wires / sensors / boost lines etc etc etc which i have no idea how i am going to put back corrrectly

2. I have spent too much recently (surely worth it though ;) )
 
if there the same (not sure if they are) i have a full set of crank and big end shells for the ma10. could be persuaded to sell them
 
imp124 said:
ah great so im not going mad then :D

im kind of looking forward to it but not for two main reasons:

1. all the turbo engine looks a mass of wires / sensors / boost lines etc etc etc which i have no idea how i am going to put back corrrectly

2. I have spent too much recently (surely worth it though ;) )
Click to expand...

Take lots of photo's of the engine from various angles and also as you strip parts take more photo's.

The ST bay is a bit of a maze, so this will help you put things back.

Kev
 
turbo

hi,

i have a horrible sinking feeling now after looking for play in the turbo spindle, it does move ever so slightly from side to side on both spindle ends, but the blades to not touch the housing. Also i did not notice any smoke when it was running though?

There is no side to side play

so this leads to a few questions:

1. How much would a new turbo / recon of this one be? and who to ask about it

2. on the turbo are you supposed to be able to move the vaccum actuator freely as this one one budge

3. what is the sensor on the turbo with the black wire coming out? (mine goes nowhere)
 
the turbo core will always have a little movement when you wiggle it side to side, especially with bush bearing turbos. but when I say little, I mean less than a millimeter or 2, so if it is moving back and forward more than that, yes you have stuffed turbo bearings. only in the worst cases (like the 2 I broke last week on another car) will the blades be able to touch the housing.

as for your questions....#1 I can't really help, it would be about $AUD1000 here to recondition the turbo. You may want to consider "high flowing" it at the same time where they put a slightly larger wheel on the turbo for about 20% more go.

#2 no you probably won't be able to move it, best way to test it is to put air into it from a compressor (make sure the pressure is turned down to only 10-20psi. It should move the actuator.

#3 no idea :D

BTW if the turbo was dead you would have seen smoke out the zorst, and/or a horrible whining noise as it hit boost (yes even worse that the super charger lol)
 
imp124 said:
so i take it the super charger is supposed to sound like a dieing cow?
Click to expand...

Yes it does especially went the resonator box is removed
I would'nt worry about the turbo for the moment steve the actuator is fine its quite hard to move them by hand, the saying"don't fix it if it aint broke" comes to mind, concentrate on getting engine built for the moment. I have the original turbo from my engine and it has 80k kms on it with slight movement in the shaft and it was perfect, boost pipes were always completely dry and no blue exhaust smoke
 
most of the engine is done just waiting on the block for machining and fingers crossed its plain sailing from there :D
 
can anyone tell me what each fuse on the fuse box does as i cannot read Japanese and a few have some how blown and dont know what they are?

cheers :)
 
imp124 said:
can anyone tell me what each fuse on the fuse box does as i cannot read Japanese and a few have some how blown and dont know what they are?

cheers :)
Click to expand...

Taken from the malaysian st site

ZZ.jpg
 
imp124 said:
hi,

i have a horrible sinking feeling now after looking for play in the turbo spindle, it does move ever so slightly from side to side on both spindle ends, but the blades to not touch the housing. Also i did not notice any smoke when it was running though?

There is no side to side play

so this leads to a few questions:

1. How much would a new turbo / recon of this one be? and who to ask about it

2. on the turbo are you supposed to be able to move the vaccum actuator freely as this one one budge

3. what is the sensor on the turbo with the black wire coming out? (mine goes nowhere)
Click to expand...

If there is any end float at all, I.e. the shaft slides back and forth on its bearings, its knackered. There should NO end float. As for side to side a fraction of a mm, unnoticeable unless you put a little bit more force than you should on it.

The sensor is a lambda sensor.
 
Oh I should add if you feared the turbo was dead, best thing to do is to weld on a flange and stick a T2 turbo on it.
 
there is no side to side end float, cheers for the fuse box pic Baz, any news on the block Ed?

Cheers

Steve
 
Quick question:

Are the crank shaft oil seals for the MA09 the same as the MA10 and MA12 or are all three different?

Thanks

Steve
 
ok cheers Ed, i think changing all the seals and everything i possibly can with new might be best.

Steve
 
right not a lot of progress with this atm as its freezing!, but i did manage to get the block honed which has uncovered some potintial problems. When i went in to collect it he said the bores are worn and i think the work card said 6 thou (0.006")? has been taken off the bores and there are still small patches towards the top of the cylinder un-honed, he suggested i might get away with 'new piston rings' now i know i cant get hold of these, i might have to get some made? also the engine in the car has done less miles than the block i think, well the car has done around 55,000 miles dont know if this makes a difference.

Dont really know what to do now...

Cheers

Steve
 
there are companies out there you can get piston rings from, if your building an engine you would be really silly not to put new rings in if everything else is new.
 
ok, cheers for that, i would like to put new rings in, just need an approximate price (i imagine it will hurt my budget quite hard) but wouldnt want to compromise really.

does anyone know on any specific dimensions / tolerances etc the rings should have as i think they may need more info than this to make them:

Piston ring
The top B×T: 1.5mm×2.5mm
Outer shape: Barrel force
Surface treatment: Nitride processing
Second base B×T: 1.5mm×2.9mm
Outer shape: Taper
Surface treatment: Chrome plating Oil B×T: 2.8mm×2.8mm

Ed, have you ever had any made, or got any for that matter lol (shot in the dark i know) or know places that will make them and know what im jabbering on about?

Cheers

Steve
 
ok cheers for that frank,

i have sent a few emails about and see what replys i get, if it all fails then i take it you used the k11 1.0l rings and filed the ends so they compressed more into the bore? would this fit and work? I liked the sound of Baz's piston ring post untill the bit about the material issues... I really want this done properly and to work, its not at all fun seeing it in bits lol
 
imp124 said:
i take it you used the k11 1.0l rings and filed the ends so they compressed more into the bore? would this fit and work?
Click to expand...

on our kart engines we use oversize (.25mm) rings and file the end down so that you have a 10" thou gap when you slide it half way down the bore steve (a new ring in a worn bore will have a gap of more than 10" thou, and will leak some compression)
so that when the engine has warmed up the ring will expand maybe 9" tho and give a near perfect seal :cool:
 
one thing i have just thought of, what would stop me from applying this principle with MA10 rings, as i cannot imagine there being much difference?

Steve
 
imp124 said:
one thing i have just thought of, what would stop me from applying this principle with MA10 rings, as i cannot imagine there being much difference?

Steve
Click to expand...

like i say, 1mm is a bit ott, you have to file about 2.5mm off (depending on the amount of bore wear) and you end up with a very "springy" ring (higher friction)
the kart racers slide the rings down an old bore and then get the ring red-hot to make them less springy than a stock ring, (low friction) but with a tighter end-gap.
plus the ST top ring may (?) be made from a different material (as forced engines are prone to top-ring or ringland probs eh) :eek:
 
I gave up looking for rings I'm afraid. I could only find cast iron ones which were no good to me (and would probably break in the st)
 
imp124 said:
When i went in to collect it he said the bores are worn and i think the work card said 6 thou (0.006")? has been taken off the bores and there are still small patches towards the top of the cylinder un-honed, he suggested i might get away with 'new piston rings' now i know i cant get hold of these, i might have to get some made?
Click to expand...

Steve 6 thou extra clearance is huge. What did the workshop say about using the block still? Generally a factory cast piston will have 1.5-3 thou clearance to the bore - so if you originally had only 2 + 6 in the new hone you now have 8 thou which will never work.

At this stage I think you either need to replace the block or bore it out to 20 thou over and use oversize pistons. Also keep in mind where they said there are still some parts of the bore which have not been honed - this means the bore is out of round which will be an issue for future ring sealing as well (accelerated wear).

Nismo do make oversize pistons for these motors (although I'm not clear on availability yet), and the details Ed posted earlier about custom piston makers would be another option for oversize pistons.

Re rings - I can't see any reason why you can't get the MA10 ones and file them down, it is done all the time.
 
right, im a little stuck for what to do now. could i bore out to suit the MA10 pistons, rings etc, i dont know anyone who can make custom pistons. This is turning into a bit of a mess

Steve
 
Custom pistons I can do and are around £600 a set. The problem is that for JE at least the gudgeon pin is a funny size and not one that the custom pistons support. This is why I had both pistons AND rods made. You better sit down too as if you want them both rods are approx £900. This was before the exchange rates bombed too.

If I were you, I would look at figaro pistons. Chances are the gudeon pins are the same, and so you could overbore for these. Or the ring dimensions may also be the same, and then as suggest file down. That would imo be the best way to go.
 
Ok, thanks Ed, i just about made it to my seat before i collapsed at the £900 lol, i will have a look for some fig bits, just one teeny more question, whats the difference between MA10 and fig pistons?

Cheers for all your help
Steve
 
ok, i have found a set of figaro pistons and rings but they are oversize 0.5mm so thats an extra 1/2 mm in loosing from the cylinder wall which i do not like
 
I'd guess you need to talk to the engine shop too, I'm just a bloke on the internet, they are the experts. But it sounds waaay out of spec to me.

Ed has previously mentioned that the only difference in the bottom end is the CR of the pistons and bore diameter so if MA10 engines are readily available wouldn't that be a cheaper and easier option (plus there is no substitute for cubes as the americans say :D ). Just bolt the ST head and externals onto the MA10 motor.

Assuming figaro is factory turbo on an ma10 motor that sounds like a great way to go. I don't think losing .5mm from the bore will be an issue, I understand the MA09 used MA10 block with thicker liners anyway to reduce the capacity for racing rules....so everything will be well within "safe"
 
Some figaro people are saying the only real similarity between the MA10 and fig engine is the block, the pistons etc are all different as in harder / tougher shells etc?, dont know how true this is. In a nut shell, i want this done properly so it wont do all this again, i only had it a day before it went and i would like it to last longer than that :D, i will ask at the machine shop tomorrow, they specialise in engines so they should know what they are talking about, i dont particularly see what a rebore and figaro pistons would do thats bad? higher compression ratio, me-map possibly, yes more stress on the shells, rods and crank but they have this anyway?

then there would be a question of reliability

thanks

Steve
 
Ignore them. I'm telling you now it will be fine. Just get your hands on a set of fig con rods and pistons if you can.

Figs like to think they are special and their car is a one off, it isn't. There are minor changes required for compression etc, but 99% of the parts are the same. Don't forget for every ST made (which truly is a one off) more than Two figs were made. Also the Fig engine was used in the 1985 March Turbo, so there really is nothing special about it, its design is just 4 years older and much less advanced/refined on the ECU/ancillary side of things. BTW nissan did a special 1.0 non turbo race engine on the MA10 block which used ST intake manifolds and tubular exhaust. It made the same power as fig turbo. That gives you partly an idea just how much better the ST stuff is for performance point of view.
 
Ed said:
Ignore them. I'm telling you now it will be fine. Just get your hands on a set of fig con rods and pistons if you can.

Figs like to think they are special and their car is a one off, it isn't. There are minor changes required for compression etc, but 99% of the parts are the same. Don't forget for every ST made (which truly is a one off) more than Two figs were made. Also the Fig engine was used in the 1985 March Turbo, so there really is nothing special about it, its design is just 4 years older and much less advanced/refined on the ECU/ancillary side of things. BTW nissan did a special 1.0 non turbo race engine on the MA10 block which used ST intake manifolds and tubular exhaust. It made the same power as fig turbo. That gives you partly an idea just how much better the ST stuff is for performance point of view.
Click to expand...

Some nice info there Ed,

Steve there was a set of fig pistons for sale recently on egay.

Failing that I have another block here I could get the bores checked before lol!
 
I saw the fig pitsons on ebay, this is what i was going to go for but the standard 68mm NOT 0.5 oversize if i could help it

right, im still going to keep my options open, i will still consider a ST block, why fig con rods though Ed? i had a look and i thought the stroke etc was the same as the MA09? Baz if you could get the bores checked and if ok give me a price, but then theres still the problem of the piston rings, which i may file MA10's down.

one quick thing though, If i did have a rebore with fig pistons would i require a new fuel map?

Cheers for help

Steve
 
ed mentioned the oddball gudgeon pin size steve (re conrods)
if the machine shop mean the bores are 6 thou over stock, then thats not too bad (haynes says 4 thou max, but they,re always very conservative imo)
personally i would just get some custom .25mm oversize top rings made and assemble the engine, and then if there is any piston slap, it,ll be $$$ :eek:
 
frank said:
ed mentioned the oddball gudgeon pin size steve (re conrods)
if the machine shop mean the bores are 6 thou over stock, then thats not too bad (haynes says 4 thou max, but they,re always very conservative imo)
personally i would just get some custom .25mm oversize top rings made and assemble the engine, and then if there is any piston slap, it,ll be $$$ :eek:
Click to expand...

well, when i went to pick up the block, i saw on their job car saying whats been done so the correct price can be set etc, 0.006" hone

He did say that the block was worn and i MIGHT get away with new rings!, so would you suggest fileing down some MA10 rings then to suit Frank?

What i might end up doing is building this up and also building a short engine ready just incase

cheers

Steve
 

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