late MA12 engine

O

ohc_turbo

Guest
I bought a late K reg 1.2 micra yesterday, it is quite more noticably nippy compared to my 1.0

it seems like its got the same lump as the super s
under the bonnet and its got a lambda sensor, some sort of EGR stuff going from the exhaust manifold to the inlet also it has a ECU under the passenger seat

im going to be doing a transpant soon into my 1.0 now need some advice whether to keep the ECU MA12 or simply go back to a non ecu normal carb setup

ive heard the 1.0 carb has bigger jets than the 1.2 carb, is it recommended that i ditch the ecu carb and put my 1.0 carb on the ma12

also the exhaust manifold is considerably diffrent, doest it have a cat near the lambda, it looks like it, what will happent if i unplug the lambda and put my 1.0 exhaust manifold on

what question i should have asked is is the MA12 ECU engine more tunable than just a normal carb setup

cheers for tip guys
 
From what I've seen you might have 2 cats, one in the usual place and one directly after the manifold.
 
the best thing to do with the ecc ma12 is to remove both cats but keep the cat manifold as it is the best flowing have the carb rejetted with 1.0 jets and this will free up the engine alot. its definatly best to keep all the ecc gear on the car as i have done quite a lot of reading on some of the ecc compnents and it certainly will make the engine run alot better and more effciently. it also has a crank angle sensor which among others things produces a much better spark and we all know the better the spark the better tyhe performance :D
 
Is there actual evidence to say the MA10 carb has bigger jets than the MA12 carb? It goes totally against any logic or reason that a smaller engine would be jetted to provide more fuel.
 
the best thing to do with the ecc ma12 is to remove both cats but keep the cat manifold as it is the best flowing have the carb rejetted with 1.0 jets and this will free up the engine alot. its definatly best to keep all the ecc gear on the car as i have done quite a lot of reading on some of the ecc compnents and it certainly will make the engine run alot better and more effciently. it also has a crank angle sensor which among others things produces a much better spark and we all know the better the spark the better tyhe performance :D
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alot of what you have written makes no sense Speedle.

first thing is the manfold is the first cat! it cannot be kept and removed and it is crap and flow is worse. the none cat manifold is better,

The ECC is junk mate, I wish you luck in trying to make it work better for you. but it is a waste of time. it slows the car down.

as for the messing around with other carb jets from other k10s a rolling road set up would be far better ten fold.

Andrew - i think someone said it ages ago and now everyone thinks its true, I myself dont know.
 
I rember reading about the carbs some time ago, in the Haynes 'Japanese Automotive Carb Manual' it did seem to suggest the 1.0 jets were bigger than the 1.2
 
Mark said:
alot of what you have written makes no sense Speedle.

first thing is the manfold is the first cat! it cannot be kept and removed and it is crap and flow is worse. the none cat manifold is better,

The ECC is junk mate, I wish you luck in trying to make it work better for you. but it is a waste of time. it slows the car down.

as for the messing around with other carb jets from other k10s a rolling road set up would be far better ten fold.

Andrew - i think someone said it ages ago and now everyone thinks its true, I myself dont know.
Click to expand...


ed can u sort out these two opinions as i would like to know wot is best for the car
 
it does make sense ditching the ecu stuff, its got so much emmisions stuff on it, rocker covers going into manifold, vacuum line going everywhere cats and more cats

but on the other hand i bet its more efficient than the normal carb 1.2

if i can get away with putting the 1.0 inlet and exhaust mani on it would save me a lot of grief changing over the looms


how comes the ecu MA12 isnt lower HP than the non ECU MA12, you would have thought that all the ECUMA12's EGR stuff and cats would decrease the power slightly but in theory if they are the same power (60bhp) the ECUMA12 must be more powerfull than a standard non ECU MA12 as taking the cats off etc will free up horses thus making it more powerfull

it dosent make sense unless the ECUMA12 does have better flowing manifolds ,bigger carb and maybe diffrent cam spec but i doubt it
 
ill put it in basic terms as some seem to have trouble understanding! keep the CAT manifold but remove the cat from inside the manifold (this is easy to do as mike has done it) remove the second cat! cats now gone! meow

the rest of the ecc stuff should remain on the car! simple
 
Mark said:
alot of what you have written makes no sense Speedle.

first thing is the manfold is the first cat! it cannot be kept and removed and it is crap and flow is worse. the none cat manifold is better,

The ECC is junk mate, I wish you luck in trying to make it work better for you. but it is a waste of time. it slows the car down.

as for the messing around with other carb jets from other k10s a rolling road set up would be far better ten fold.

Andrew - i think someone said it ages ago and now everyone thinks its true, I myself dont know.
Click to expand...

1.i know this.... and the cat can be removed from the manilfold, mike (dragula) has done this, the cat manifold with the cat removed from inside is the best flowing....

2.
Wrong again, it makes the carb run more efficently and also has uprated ignition components making a better spark, thus improving performance


3.as i said! take ma10 jets into the modifed hitachi on the ma12 ecc

4. i just read what i wrote and it makes perfect sence to me...
 
Speedle the none cat manifold is better, I know this because I had one and then changed to the other, The internals of the manifold were removed just like you say your going to do.

I have tried myself to change manifolds etc but once you start removing stuff it doesnt like it and the car doesnt work properly.

In theory you may think it will work speedle but when it comes to it it doesnt. even if you want to change back to a non ecc carb then there is so much re-wireing that needs to be done.

OHC - the MA12 cat is 54bhp. a lot of places it does say 60bhp but its actually 54bhp.

Personally I think you'll be makeing a new thread wanting details of how to remove it all in a few short weeks
 
Mark said:
Personally I think you'll be making a new thread wanting details of how to remove it all in a few short weeks
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its not hard to take off exhaust manifold and throw it in the bin and take off the inlet manifold and throw it in the bin all id have to do is get my 1.0 exhaust and intake and bolt them up thus removing all the ecu crap, im putting it into a car that got a 1.0 carb already in it so i dont have to worry about taking all the loom out.

bolting the 1.0 carb on the ma12 will work better than the existing carb
 
ECC carb has 8 Wires, NON ECC has 4 wires, The idle controller's under the seats are not the same and are not compatable.Prepare yourself for a lot of re-wireing.

I just used a weber carb as there is no need for any re-wiring.

P.S the ignition system doesnt like it when you change the carbs over.

If you can get it all to work then that would be good, so far no one has.
 
ohc_turbo said:
I bought a late K reg 1.2 micra yesterday, it is quite more noticably nippy compared to my 1.0
Click to expand...

What gearbox did you have on your 1.0 :)

Cheers
Arnold
 
my plan of action will be to

take out my MA10 engine
Take out donor ECU MA12 engine
take off MA12 Exhaust manifold
put on MA10 Exhaust manifold
Take off MA12 Ecc intake manifold
put on MA10 intake manifold

if all goes to plan it will be a bolt in job for the MA12, i hope the MA10 carb will be ok on the Ma12 as i will be in trouble

can anyone confirm that if i swap the whole intake over it will be ok



arnold, im using the 4 speed on the MA12, the 5speed that was in it blew up
 
If your taking the MA12 out and sticking it in another K10 which used to be a MA10 then there is no problem what so ever,
 
:doh:
ohc_turbo said:
arnold, im using the 4 speed on the MA12, the 5speed that was in it blew up
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Interesting

What sort of speed are you able to reach in each gear using the 4 speed on the ma12? The 4 speed on the ma10 was pretty crap, like the 5 speed wide ratio is on the ma12 (apparently)
 
Yeah i know but obviously with .2 of a L extra power, i was just wondering how much faster you can go in each gear - if you can - or if it just makes the top end higher but unreachable using that gearbox
 
5 speed makes it more comfortable when motorway driving, racing though you only really use 4th for top speed, i do anyway

so does anyone know that the ma10 whole intake will work on a ma12, if it does work is it better?

on the side..what have you done to youre ma10 to make it go 100mph / 4th gear arnold? that quite a achievement as i can only get 85 going down a hill with the wind behind me.
 
I cant be bothered to read all the petty squabbling in this thread (typical from Mark). If you want the best all round performance from the 1.2 keep the ECC, and remove the cats and other emission controls. The ECC is by FAR FAR FAR better, infact anyone who even compares the ECC to a non ECC system needs to go and learn a few things as simply - there is no comparison in tems of refinment. It alsmost annoys me to see people saying ECC is nonsense when they have utterly no idea what it even does, how it even works and just spout of crap fed to them from other people.
 
I would probably stick normal inlet manifold on it. Block remove the cat(s) and block off the egr pipe. I would fit a normal airfilter pan. Basically remove all the emissions stuff but LEAVE on all the electronics and the lambda sensor.
 
ohc_turbo said:
on the side..what have you done to youre ma10 to make it go 100mph / 4th gear arnold? that quite a achievement as i can only get 85 going down a hill with the wind behind me.
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Well its the wide ratio 5 speed on the 1.0 engine. Even so, with the 4 speed i had, that could still hit 100mph aswell. Apart from oil changes and regular servicing, there hasnt been anything done mechanically! Whens the last time yours got a full service etc?
 
thats good james delete all the posts... and give me warnings because i'm saying ed is unhelpful......
 
I have deleted the posts as they were not helpful in the slightest.

May I remind you that the MSC terms and conditions state that the decision of a Moderator is FINAL and is not open for debate. Any more discussion of this and further action will be taken.
 
So Ed, is 1.0 carb/inlet manifold a upgrade on the 1.2. if not can i use the 1.0 carb on the 1.2.

the ecc will make it run more efficiently but thats all, with all that emmisions guff on it it isnt a good starting point really

its a close call between a carb setup and a ecc operated carb, everyone is stating that the ecc gives a better spark but with a carb MA12 thers always the option of uprated coil (MSD) 8mm leads spark plugs etc.

id like to put it in but i cant be arsed with fitting the loom, im a lazy git and spending a few hours taking looms out dosent really appeal to me for no real benifit

ECU operated systems was the way forward, shame the micra didnt have much tuning potential from one untill the K11.
 
Ed said:
I cant be bothered to read all the petty squabbling in this thread (typical from Mark). If you want the best all round performance from the 1.2 keep the ECC, and remove the cats and other emission controls. The ECC is by FAR FAR FAR better, infact anyone who even compares the ECC to a non ECC system needs to go and learn a few things as simply - there is no comparison in tems of refinment. It alsmost annoys me to see people saying ECC is nonsense when they have utterly no idea what it even does, how it even works and just spout of crap fed to them from other people.
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thank you ED i knew i was right! glad someone who know something about these things has backed me up i mean its not liked ive owned k10's for over 5 years so i dont know much about them....... sarcasm btw ;)
 
mark is youre car slower now you have taken the Ecu off? and does it run bad?
 
The 1.2 carb has an electronically controlled injector, THIS is how it alters the AFR to maintain correct emissions, AND is why it has a slightly smaller main jet.

Mark you talk rubbish. You have no idea what ECC is, you are only saying this from what others have said to you.

Some reasons:

The ECC has constant energy spark. Its more powerful far more reliable than the ancient designs on the electronic ignition (which is no better than points when both work as they should)

The ignition on the ECC is MAPPED, it has a boost pressure sensor. It would be possible to connect e-manage to this and remap the ignition curve underboost for a turbo. You cannot do this on any other K10 micra.

Finally the ECC is a fully operational ECU but it doesnt have injection - thats the only thing that is missing.
 
anyone have a spare k10 ecc you wouldn't mind me breaking, if you want me to have a look at the code and see what i make of it?

what sensors does the ecc k10 use? some sort of map? throttle position? lambda?

i know little about the k10 so excuse my lack of knowledge
 
micra_pete said:
anyone have a spare k10 ecc you wouldn't mind me breaking, if you want me to have a look at the code and see what i make of it?

what sensors does the ecc k10 use? some sort of map? throttle position? lambda?

i know little about the k10 so excuse my lack of knowledge
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i can get one mate as there is a 1.2 ecc down my local scrap yard i have already taken most of the sensors and bits off as i thought it would be a good idea to stock up on spares, i got the coil, boost sensor etc etc ill be going back for the dizzy as i didn't realise until i read about it that is has a crank angle sensor built in to it, ill be getting the ECU (ECC) whatever you want to call it as well as i thought it maybe good to have a spare but ill gladfully donate it if it can be used to benifit others
 
although i believe ed may have already mapped it...... i may be wrong hey certainly labeled all the wires lol
 
Mark said:
Arnold the 4 and 5speed have the same 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears. the 5 speed has an extra gear.
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They may have the same 4 gears but thay have different ratio final drives.
 
hanyes manual has all the ratios listed for all 3 gear boxes the 4 speed and two 5 speeds ill post em up later ;)
 
ECC is better. IT is slower as standard because it has 2 cats, and runs more retarded. Keep the ECC system, remove both the cats, advance the timing to about 2 degrees BTDC and use super unleaded. It will be much better.

And stop bickering with speedle mark, he knows more about k10's than you.
 
Slim said:
ECC is better. IT is slower as standard because it has 2 cats, and runs more retarded. Keep the ECC system, remove both the cats, advance the timing to about 2 degrees BTDC and use super unleaded. It will be much better.

And stop bickering with speedle mark, he knows more about k10's than you.
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:D thanks slim
 
Slim said:
ECC is better. IT is slower as standard because it has 2 cats, and runs more retarded. Keep the ECC system, remove both the cats, advance the timing to about 2 degrees BTDC and use super unleaded. It will be much better.

And stop bickering with speedle mark, he knows more about k10's than you.
Click to expand...

How about we stop the bickering all together? Come on this place is about helping each other regardless of what levels of knowledge people have or don't have!

Kev
 
well said Kev i never wanted to bicker i was simply trying to give the correct info to thoose who needed it :D which i will continue to do so. :D

on the thought that the modified ma12 carb has an injector of sorts surely that technically makes the car single point injection does it not? after all mk3 astras have a similar setup and are called single point injection(if you ask me its a carb).. at which point does it bocome single point injection and not a carb?

ed??
 
also as a point of interest i found out from the owners manual that at 56mph the 1.2 ecc does 58.6mpg how good is that! its the most economical of all the generaions of ma engines the ma10 doesnt even match this! ill scan the page tommmorow i was well impressed with that figure!
 
Speedle said:
also as a point of interest i found out from the owners manual that at 56mph the 1.2 ecc does 58.6mpg how good is that! its the most economical of all the generaions of ma engines the ma10 doesnt even match this! ill scan the page tommmorow i was well impressed with that figure!
Click to expand...

My ma10 certainly doesnt ;) then again i have to pull away at 4000 rpm to prevent it cutting out at junctions.

You never scanned in the K10 gear ratios from the haynes boyo!
 
It's not injection really, more another jet that is electronically controlled.

I made a spreadsheet of all the gear ratios, final drives ratios, tire sizes etc. and torque curve to work out optimum gear shift points on the MA12... unfortunately it's on a PC that is in storage now. I'll dig it out at Christmas.

Andrew
 
that would be great Andrew as a good point of reference for people wanting to run 1/4 mile times.

Kev
 
Speedle said:
1.i know this.... and the cat can be removed from the manilfold, mike (dragula) has done this, the cat manifold with the cat removed from inside is the best flowing....

Yes.. It was very easy to remove the cat once the manifold was off, like 5 minutes or so with a hammer. Its Mike by the way..
Click to expand...
 
thacreeper said:
Speedle said:
1.i know this.... and the cat can be removed from the manilfold, mike (dragula) has done this, the cat manifold with the cat removed from inside is the best flowing....

Yes.. It was very easy to remove the cat once the manifold was off, like 5 minutes or so with a hammer. Its Mike by the way..
Click to expand...


i know its mike, mike i called you mike lol i just used your old forum name incase people wondered who i meant :D
Click to expand...
 
Slim said:
i found using a drill worked better. How did you block up the 2 EGR pipes mike?
Click to expand...

One of them we took the pipe fitting out of, and a water temp sensor screwed in and sheared off, blocking it nicely. That lasted a good few years, until it blew out whilst being followed by the police, after which it was replaced with some exhaust putty.

The other pipe was hacksawed off and blocked using a plumbing endcap and some rubber hose.
 

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