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Dattosan Machi Suzuki twincam 4wd project pg22

Machi san said:
Looks like Iam gonna have no choice!

what do I need?
Cg10 cover
Cg10 friction plate
cg13 friction plate

what size bolts to replace the rivets?

I guess I just need to die grind the cover a little and face off the flywheel to remove lips?

anything Iam missing?

getting scrap parts tonight so I can have a play around :)
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has to be factory LUK parts kev, and m6 bolts, and i shaved the 1 side down to 170mm so that it fit under the pre-98 1.0 cover and mate with its face

 

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Machi san said:
Thanks Frank

Do you get the parts from the main dealer? Best I can get from factors round here is blueprint
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pffft main dealer lol kev :laugh: all 2nd hand mate, we,re very limited tbh with these type 41 g/boxes, the thrustrace face is a lot smaller so we cant use any cover apart from 160mm, and we cant use any of the other flywheels because ours are very shallow dished.
but the hybrid clutch will cope with 120hp imo (Y)
 
Thanks mate, don't suppose you could measure the inner diameter of both clutch friction plates?

Ie.
Cg10 od = 160 id = ?
Cg13 od = 180 id= ?

I wanna calculate torque handling ability of each. I have something to try :)
 
excellent spot on chap (Y)

Just need too make an educated guess on the co-efficient of friction and clamping load now :D

Gonna go with .25 co-efficient and 1000lb force too make it easy as its just too test a theory.

Shopping now yippee!
 
Can you make a diagram or something, that I know what you are talking about? because I need a new clutch in my k10 too... and why not a better one?
 
aLLeKs said:
Can you make a diagram or something, that I know what you are talking about? because I need a new clutch in my k10 too... and why not a better one?
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you remove the rivets and swap the smaller centre/smaller spline into the 180mm plate alleks, then chamfer/bevel the outer face to 170mm

 

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In the real world Frank has had very good results from the larger plate modification. However, on paper, there doesn't appear to be a massive increase in capability. Although Iam using the same co-efficient of friction for both small and larger plates.

I used this formula:
Lb-ft = clamp force x mean effective radius x no. Of friction faces x mu

Mean rad can be worked out like this vvvvvv
Mean rad = square root of ((od squared + Id squared) x 0.5)
 
Mean rads equal

Cg10 .224ft
Cg13 .255ft

180 x 170 Frank plate .249ft

Using the following:
Clamp force = 1000lbs
Mu= 0.25

We get

Cg10 = 112ftlb
Cg13 = 127ftlb
Frank plate = 124.5ftlb

The clamping force is obviously less so using 750lbs instead we get 84ftlb from Cg10. That's closer :)
 
i worked it out at "increase of surface area" kev,
the band of friction face is 2mm wider and 20mm bigger dia, which was about a 20% increase iirc
(pi x r squared etc)
 
Swift gti chaps and some A-series boys double up on diaphram springs.

So for arguments sake let's say a single spring is 750lb and 2 = 1500lb

Cg10 @ 1500lbs = 168ftlb

I need to find some books cose Iam not 110% sure of the equations, Google specials lol
 
the diaphram spring in my exedy cover is 15" thou thinner than the LUK ones kev (and the exedy 160mm clutch slipped @ about 90hp)
2 springs would give a very heavy pedal eh :eek:
 
frank said:
the diaphram spring in my exedy cover is 15" thou thinner than the LUK ones kev (and the exedy 160mm clutch slipped @ about 90hp)
2 springs would give a very heavy pedal eh :eek:
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They will be heat treated differently but does explain why it slipped though i guess.

I find the clutch very very light compared with what iam used to and I doubt that double springs will damage the thrusts much.

Iam gonna build a frank clutch first and then start to play with diaphragms :D
 
yeh, but that has a far higher friction coefficient thingy :) (different, very abbrasive material and high clamping force)
bikes use multiplates eh kev, same low wear rate/longevity but more surface area
 
Dont go for extreme clamping force on cable clutch, im having a bad time with my Sentra 1.6 XTD Stage4 clutch kit, thats why i bought a stock N15 1.6 kit to use that pressure plate, my left leg is begging me to swap it... :p
 
Yes your right I need to do some more reading because my brain had turned into a sieve. ill dig out my imo work cose I have covered all this stuff in assignments ect long long time ago.
 
Me too :)

Double spring swift gti cover

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I can't find any Google info on friction area affecting performance. Everything says that effective radius, spring force, friction co-effecient and no. Of surfaces all have an affect :s
 
Moving on, I have no heating since fitting the cg engine!

And

I still haven't found a cga crank without having to spend 300 on a complete engine :(
 
K11SS said:
Why do you need a CGA crank? I'll pay my uncle a visit at his scrapyard see if I can nick one for you lol

Pepper
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I'd give you GOOD money for a crank if you can get me one!

I want one for the new engine Iam building ;) they have a longer stroke and take the 1275cc capacity out to 1311cc with a bucket load of torque :D

Franks already done it and superls has also :)
 
why not put the smaller centre in the cg13 friction plate, then use a cg13 flywheel and pressure plate, eliminating the need to shave any off the friction plate, giving maximum from the cg13 clutch???
 
Do you use the CGA crank on a standard CG13 to increase the capacity? Or do you need to change any other parts?

In doing this swap do you raise the CR? For the turbo application I might install at a later date!

Pepper
 
K11SS said:
Do you use the CGA crank on a standard CG13 to increase the capacity? Or do you need to change any other parts?

In doing this swap do you raise the CR? For the turbo application I might install at a later date!

Pepper
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My engine will end up being hi compression 12:1.

Iam using:
Cg10 block + pistons
Cg13 con rods
Cga3 crank

Then ported cg head with cga valves and Kent cams.

The pistons will protrude 1.2mm from the top of the block. Frank used a thicker gasket iirc.

Superls used cg13 pistons and machined 1.2mm from the top of the pistons, he got slightly higher compression than standard. Cga crank, cg13 pistons + thicker gasket would give standard comp :)
 
mine,s got 2 re-cycled gaskets kev :) the compression should,nt be a problem but the crowns will smack the quench steps if not machined eh :eek:
 
Machi san said:
I can't find any Google info on friction area affecting performance. Everything says that effective radius, spring force, friction co-effecient and no. Of surfaces all have an affect :s
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why does a more powerful 2.0 engine have a bigger clutch than a 1.0 engine then kev ? and why does a more powerful car have bigger brakediscs ? (higher surface area and larger radius/leverage innit :))
 
Lol frank your so ghetto its unreal, I thought I was fairly crazy/hardcore :D

defo going with machining the pistons :nod:

Although I may have to buy another engine on the weekend because I have blue smoke pouring out of the exhaust when its hot, noticed it for first time today :(

If I had time ect id POP in the Cg10 pistons I have sat waiting. Frank can you get cg pistons in easily without removing the engine? Thought not lol
 
Machi san said:
Lol frank your so ghetto its unreal, I thought I was fairly crazy/hardcore :D

defo going with machining the pistons :nod:

Although I may have to buy another engine on the weekend because I have blue smoke pouring out of the exhaust when its hot, noticed it for first time today :(

If I had time ect id POP in the Cg10 pistons I have sat waiting. Frank can you get cg pistons in easily without removing the engine? Thought not lol
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ghetto is my middle name kev lol :grinning:
i guess you know the wristpin is an interference fit ? but you could lift the head and drop the sump eh
 
frank said:
why does a more powerful 2.0 engine have a bigger clutch than a 1.0 engine then kev ? and why does a more powerful car have bigger brakediscs ? (higher surface area and larger radius/leverage innit :))
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They have bigger brakes and clutch to increase the 'mean effective torque radius' for leverage. I can see the logic in having a bigger contact area but Iam not convinced purely from what I remember from uni.
 
Brakes. So I thought I'd have a quick research on the brake pad area. It appears that advantage of big area is heat management. which is a big factor in performance of braking and clutches.

From stoptech website written by steve ruiz and carrol smith

"Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque."
 
Machi san said:
Brakes. So I thought I'd have a quick research on the brake pad area. It appears that advantage of big area is heat management. which is a big factor in performance of braking and clutches.

From stoptech website written by steve ruiz and carrol smith

"Only increasing the effective radius of the disc, the caliper piston area, the line pressure, or the coefficient of friction can increase brake torque. Increasing the pad area will decrease pad wear and improve the fade characteristics of the pads but it will not increase the brake torque."
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makes sense kev (Y)
 
frank said:
ghetto is my middle name kev lol :grinning:
i guess you know the wristpin is an interference fit ? but you could lift the head and drop the sump eh
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Yeah I was gonna get a local engine builder to swap the rods over for me :)

I think I should soldier on and get this stroker built :)
 
In the pics above you can see that I have started to construct a Frank.n.stein clutch plate. Just need to go and get some m6 nylocs and bevel the cg13 plate on one side. then out can all be bolted back together. I have m6 hi-tensile 12.9 cap head bolts which ill probably peen over peen the ends once fitted and torqued up.

Next few pics above are the double diaphragm cover that iam attempting to construct. All I really need to do is make some longer top hat rivets but make them with an m6 thread down the middle. Before I make them I need to calculate how much longer to make them.

This shizzle is fun to bizzle. I love making stuff from scraps from my weighing in pile. only needed one extra cover from my local scrappy.

Also got the heating to work. All the controls are mangled :( so have put my arm under the dash to get some heat going.

Today I hope to have finished the clutch, tucked the exhaust up high and made some rear bump stops :)
 
double post.

I asked at the scrappy about the cga he had there for lots of money. i was hoping to strike some kind of deal. Unfortunately he has melted it down for recycling. He only had to cg10 and one ga16 no other Nissan stuff at all.

I may have abort the stroker engine plan :(
 
Also gonna have abort the clutch plate job cose I havent got man enough drills to take the holes out to 6mm for the m6 bolts. Gonna need diamond tip drills or something.

Double diaphragm cover is almost finished though :D
 
baguete said:
Dont go for extreme clamping force on cable clutch, im having a bad time with my Sentra 1.6 XTD Stage4 clutch kit, thats why i bought a stock N15 1.6 kit to use that pressure plate, my left leg is begging me to swap it... :p
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Only just read this mate!

I think ill have test it and see how heavy it is! I can always make a longer clutch arm for more leverage
 
What size of drill is it and material are you drilling? If I go on the scrounge I might be able to find you a decent drill for the job lol

Pepper
 
New top hat things. I may remake these with m6 threads built in so that I don't need the nuts.
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Machining the drive plate. I removed 2.4mm to account for double springs.
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Diaphragms bolted into cover with new top hats.
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Drive plate bolted on and friction plate offered up to check height. It's same height as standard :)
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This is a concern at the moment. The gap will close between drive plate and retaining nut once its all bolted too the flywheel. There may not be enough room for the clutch to release. Need to make new top hats with threads within.
IMAG0245.jpg


IMAG0247.jpg


IMAG0248.jpg
 
K11SS said:
What size of drill is it and material are you drilling? If I go on the scrounge I might be able to find you a decent drill for the job lol

Pepper
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Thanks man, Iam trying to drill 5mm holes out to 6mm and its some kind of hardened steel. However, iam an engineer so will be able to drill the holes in work because we have some fancy drills :)

Please please please scrounge me a cga13 crank and rods :)
 
I was gonna try scounge you a solid carbide drill bit, weighs a ton for its size lol

I'll have a scrounge during the week at his dads cause my uncle gave up his yard :'(

Pepper
 
frank said:
lookin good kev (Y) i used a dremel and 3mm stone lol :grinning:
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Thanks and thanks for the tip. Do you have any idea how much travel the clutch drive plate has/needs?

K11SS said:
I was gonna try scounge you a solid carbide drill bit, weighs a ton for its size lol

I'll have a scrounge during the week at his dads cause my uncle gave up his yard :'(

Pepper
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Sweet man I can get carbide drills from work, thanks anyways :)

Let me know if you can dig out a cga (Y) can't wait for more power :D
 

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