shedding weight from behind dash?

The rear drums won't heat up enough as they only share a fraction of the braking load, frank replaced the support bar with an alloy bar and as for the front engine mount I know frank did that to help aid engine removal
 
lucifer said:
Also try and find anywhere on any tuning site or any car mod site or performance parts suppliers drums that look or are manufactured like that, good luck on that search and why are they not available to buy if they are a good idea?
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its all bout the loaf over here,,,,,,,,,sometimes :grinning:
 
lucifer said:
Also try and find anywhere on any tuning site or any car mod site or performance parts suppliers drums that look or are manufactured like that, good luck on that search and why are they not available to buy if they are a good idea?
Click to expand...

Do what you like man, just dont try to make other people to think like you, because all of us would be closed-minded people...
 
And live a long life lol, rear brakes don't heat up enough lol (even on a track?) Someone hasn't adjusted the brake bias correctly me thinks. shame nissan didn't know that trick then or they could have shaved masses of weight and got fuel economy up etc... man you should send your ideas in to Nissan on a stamped addressed card, Oh let me know what they reply, i'm truly interested hah ha ha
 
But removing the front engine mount off of what is now left of the brace bar (very weak) Can't be a good idea ? surely if it was unneeded Nissan wouldn't have fitted it and saved some money, i guess there R&D missed a trick there? Also when you are racing the loads on the engine and also all components for that matter is double and more constant (hence the availability from Matt Humphries of a FULL set of Nismo uprated engine mounts). I agree make it quick release some how but you do need to put it back really. Correct me as i'm sure you will if you think i'm wrong but please base this on some engineering and racing knowledge and common sense. You are after all implying That others here could do the same and it will be a Good thing to do with no problems occurring from doing this.
Would it not have surely been better to lose the interior, rear seat etc etc... fit some light weight buckets or just one bucket, light weight windows, and some racing/light weight alloy's just a suggestion of course, but for a track car the interior seems to have a lot left in it.
 
the front "engine mount" is not an engine mount it is there as a torque dampener, it stops the engine twisting, so no strength is lost,

also saying "why did nissan put it there if it wasn't needed" doesn't work, for example all the sound dampening, the rear seats, carpet none of that is needed for a one seater track car for example. you will find that car manufactures will chose the cheapest options, they actually buy parts from other companies, so for example the rear drums could have been a bulk buy for all nissans and happen to be overkill for the micra.

cars are heavily over engineered, if you look at things like dune buggies which are just a bunch of tubes, 4 wheels and an engine, they hold up fine, the difference with cars is that they need to be built as quickly and cheaply as possible, so for example, making the hubs round is a lot easier than making them X shaped, it may use more metal but when you are buying in bulk and recycling the waste it makes no difference.


an example of this when i worked in the gambling industry, LEDs last pretty much for ever if regulated properly, but fruit machines use lightbulbs instead of LEDs which needed to be changed all the time (pain in the ass) the reason they used blubs is because they can pretty much buy them for free, when you order a million of them the individual price is practically nothing, but with LEDs, a white LED could cost 50p, you times that by the 100s in a fruit machine and then all the machines they make, that gets into crazy money.

in other words nissan did what was cheapest, as hard as this is to hear, safety is not their top priority and in fact is only an issue when it effects profits. that's business.

true mechanics out there, the kind that have knocked together little lawn mower go karts and welded things together etc will know that metal is strong stuff and its doesn't need to be large amounts to be structurally strong.



i am not saying that people should get out the angle grinder and cut their springs and drill their brakes, this does take skill and knowledge to get this right (something frank clearly has because his stuff works, and continues to work...until its stolen)
 
I maybe missing the point completely here but my interpretation on lucifer's posts is one of safety not cost.

Regardless of that, there is plenty of weight to be saved by removal of items. The only things I have bothered to do is remove the glove box, (because I broke it), remove the sound deadening and remove the ECU mount. Other than that, it's stock. Interior wise just rear seats and rear 1/4 panels......our car is certainly not a light one.
 
Low Rider said:
I maybe missing the point completely here but my interpretation on lucifer's posts is one of safety not cost.

Regardless of that, there is plenty of weight to be saved by removal of items. The only things I have bothered to do is remove the glove box, (because I broke it), remove the sound deadening and remove the ECU mount. Other than that, it's stock. Interior wise just rear seats and rear 1/4 panels......our car is certainly not a light one.
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Oooh we have just removed a glove box, free to a good home if anyone would like to collect it from Dorset.
 
Thanks Nex, i still say the front torque damper should be retained especially for racing. Remember mini's when the torque damper bushes used to kill them selves (weekly on mine) until you fitted uprated ones, the stresses on the existing mounts was massive and also on a lot of other components as i said. I defiantly would not and will not be removing mine and certainly would not suggest other people should, but as i said these are only my views.

Also about the drums, go to a garage, any garage and ask them to do that to your drums and see what they say, Again just a suggestion and not mean't in a argumentative manner, but i think the answer will be, Are you Joking, followed by no way mate.
 
the drums will be fine after all most of the force is on the front brakes and the mot guy is obviously sure enough to pass them. that front engine mount is useless imo. i saved a few gram by removing 2 wheel nuts off each wheel once although i would defiantly wouldn't tell anyone to do that :laugh: removing gearbox bolts and using only one in the starter saved a bit of weight as well. drilling the bell housing also.
 
Has it been through an mot with those drums on tho? i honestly doubt that, also once again, If you are racing then surely you are using an adjustable brake bias valve and setting it up so the back is working as it should ( i know you still have more braking front but the back will be getting hot ) also my point is that there are much safer things to be removed to save weight
 
The k11 rear brake valve is pretty useless to be honest. It's a lockout rather than a bias. Adjusted or not there's not enough rear bias in my opinion and for those of us who like to track you could use more rear bias for when you have more available grip after suspension/tyre changes from stock.

If you want true bias control it needs binning, better rear brakes and a proper bias valve fitting but that's only my experience.
 
lucifer said:
Thanks Nex, i still say the front torque damper should be retained especially for racing. Remember mini's when the torque damper bushes used to kill them selves (weekly on mine) until you fitted uprated ones, the stresses on the existing mounts was massive and also on a lot of other components as i said. I defiantly would not and will not be removing mine and certainly would not suggest other people should, but as i said these are only my views.

Also about the drums, go to a garage, any garage and ask them to do that to your drums and see what they say, Again just a suggestion and not mean't in a argumentative manner, but i think the answer will be, Are you Joking, followed by no way mate.
Click to expand...

i think the CG13 might be a little more precise so it doesn't rattle about so much, they run fairly smooth. but anyway on the back of the engine is another mount so the engine can't twist anyway, it just means more pressure on that mount which is minimal anyway. if you were to uprate that bush then the front dampener would do nothing at all.

as for the drums, think of it this way, when you heat up metal, the thicker it is the longer it takes to heat it up right? half a mm of steel verses 40mm of steel will heat up very differently. but also the metal cools differently, so thin metal will cool quickly, where as the thick metal will retain its heat.

so if the extra metal was to reduce heat then it would only work on the first time you brake, after that the heat will be stored in the extra metal and only add to the problem next time. if it was really about heat then it would have fins in the metal to dissipate heat. I still think that the micra hubs will probably fit on to all other nissans of the same year that have rear drums, they are probably just a bulk buy, and i also think that the extra metal will have something to do with balancing them, and they cast the drums cheaply and quickly and then have metal left that they can machine off until they are balanced.
 
Point taken and accepted Nex, but his drums have thick parts and thin parts which as you rightly said will heat up at different rates thus causing them to crack on a thin point (hot spot, weak link), i think thats why drums are uniformly round and constant thickness,

You Also pointed out another very valuable point, How on earth is he balancing them? And even if he is Which again i doubt (sorry to keep sounding like a doubter), he is kind of only showing people how to remove metal and not the whole job which again is a worry to me on such a vital part of the car.

The other thing you pointed out was if they needed cooling they would be finned, The old mini ones were finned to cool on my 1275 GT. What a shame they are not made for the micras as they looked awesome and with the right sort of wheels fitted would help cooling massively. hmmmm ideas ideas lol
 
lucifer said:
Point taken and accepted Nex, but his drums have thick parts and thin parts which as you rightly said will heat up at different rates thus causing them to crack on a thin point (hot spot, weak link), i think thats why drums are uniformly round and constant thickness,

You Also pointed out another very valuable point, How on earth is he balancing them? And even if he is Which again i doubt (sorry to keep sounding like a doubter), he is kind of only showing people how to remove metal and not the whole job which again is a worry to me on such a vital part of the car.

The other thing you pointed out was if they needed cooling they would be finned, The old mini ones were finned to cool on my 1275 GT. What a shame they are not made for the micras as they looked awesome and with the right sort of wheels fitted would help cooling massively. hmmmm ideas ideas lol
Click to expand...

i think that frank had just not finished the drums in that pic, i am sure he grounded them round afterward rather than leave them hexagonal, otherwise yea i would agree having hexagonal drums, if anything would be a balancing nightmare.

i think frank balances the drums in the same way he balances the flywheel, he hasn't done a pic of it, but it just involves putting it on a bearing and seeing which part falls to the bottom, and keep working it until it is perfect, it is a real skill but i am pretty sure frank has access to equipment that makes it easier. after all frank has made custom working cams, thats something i would never have the balls to do, but he just did it and they work, so i think his skills go beyond what we see in the pics.

just as a point about modifying vital parts of cars, one thing that gets me is people who cut suspension springs. it is actually ok but its taking something that was built for a reason and changing it, so i know that it feels bad to watch important parts of cars being modified but it is actually ok. I have built crazy things before, i took the motor from a moped and stuck it to a bicycle, everyone said it wouldn't work but it was fine, really fun in fact.

i reckon if you know what you are doing you might be able to cut in some fins on the drums, could be an awesome mod if they stay balanced, but again it would be for looks because its not needed. but drums are simple metal shapes, i wonder if its possible to get a set machined up with interesting looks....drums are so boring normally!
 
hexagonal drums lol, here,s a more recent pic with about 2 yrs of rust on (i nicked them back off my misses,s car, cba to do a 3rd set)

 

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another point about the brakes, back brakes really do next to nothing, the most important thing they do is hold the car with the handbrake, i changed the wheels on my volvo and found the rear discs were covered in rust because they had been stuck for months maybe? it took quite a lot to free them, but it explains why the handbrake wasn't working. and this is a 2 tonne volvo with only two working brakes and it was so normal i didn't notice.

the bad thing about back brakes is they could lock up. there is less weight on the back wheels meaning its much easier for them to lock, and if you are going round a hard corner and just tap the brakes slightly, the rear wheels could lock and you will spin. it would actually be safer to let the back wheels free wheel, then no matter what you are doing, they will have the maximum amount of traction.

so basically, if you could disable your back brakes i bet you would find that you wouldn't notice any difference and really the car might even handle slightly better as you could do emergency braking around corners and the back will never swing out.
 
What if you are braking into a corner and you only have front brakes? The rear will not be decelerated and will overtake you. I rather have the control and if i wanted the back end to slide i could do so with a tap on the pedal. And i also belive the car is more stable when braking with all 4 wheels.

And then there is the joy of an empty parking lot with fresh snow and you in the car gripping the handbrake lever :)
 
You'll find rear brakes to be very useful Nex and when they don't work properly they can make for some pretty awful performance under braking. Remember even though there isn't as mich weight on the rear wheels as the front there is still weight and therefore grip and therefore available braking effort to take advantage of. K11s with drums brake better than those with discs until heat becomes an issue, this is why we swapped as believe it or not we had rear brakes that were so hot they really were useless to the point that we had to let everything cool down. No rear brakes is not fun, you end up locking the fronts up and that's game over point ;)

If I had the time I'd completely re-brake the car and opt for 4-pots all round as there is some major room for improvement from my experiences with the K11 so far.

It's also worth noting that there are some instances on track when tail braking can aid handling...

This is a really interesting discussion thread too :)
 
fair enough, but if you are cornering enough to make the back end loose traction then what is to stop the front doing the same? when wheels are left to spin freely, they have no reason to loose traction unless you are cornering stupidly fast. for example if you loose traction, the quickest way to regain it is by dropping the clutch. the back of the car wont over take you if it has traction which it wont if you try braking (as we know braking on a corner is a bad idea in general) and yea you would have more braking performance from all 4 wheels but the micra is so small and light it doesn't need it. a set of skyline brakes on the front of a micra and i doubt they would ever get hot.

of course you would still have the handbrake so handbrake turns would still be possible :)

also all cars have smaller brakes at the back and that is for a reason, it can be pretty scary when the back locks first. i removed everything from the back of my micra and the bias was out and when ever i braked down hill the back would lock and just swing out, making the car veer to one side, very very scary. i have had the brakes adjusted so they do practically nothing and then all that happens is the back end follows the front like it should.

there is only two ways the back end would swing out, the back brakes locking before the fronts, which happens when there is less traction, OR when cornering too fast. either way both situations its not the lack of brakes that is the problem its either going too fast or braking too much,

and about tail braking, how would you use it? other than braking with the handbrake? i know it could be useful to those who really know how to drive, not of course for the average person, but you cant have more braking at the back than the front without using the handbrake, and like i said if you disable the back brakes, you still have the handbrake, (if you just lock the fluid lines)

you both make very good points, but i still think that back brakes can cause more problems than they solve, and a good set of front tires and brakes are all you need for braking, and then some wide tires at the back and maybe a spoiler for some down force to make sure that they don't loose traction.

i have driven some towing loads, where the trailer weighs more than the towing vehicle and has no brakes! totally illegal but it was an emergency, and even in those cases the front brakes were enough, there wasn't any jack knifing etc

basically i think that if your back end is loosing traction and needs to be braked then its driving style not the car which is the problem. at least in a micra anyway
 
regarding franks balancing, he made me a set of dished steels and the tyre fitter was super impressed with how spot on they were. frank is someone every car forum needs, from what ive seen hes never made mistakes and his ideas are endless and always of wow factor in my eyes.

regarding weight reduction behind the dash WHY?? if your serious about losing weight you lose all the weight you can like any fat ####### does when on a diet.

NEX- not all cars have bigger front brakes, my old lexus had bigger rear discs than front
 
Once again. Please find me proof that cars don't need rear brakes, ask any person with any proper track car if they would disable their rear brakes. the answer will deffo be NO. Also Frank really needs to show people what he is doing fully if he's recommending people do it otherwise someone is gonna come unstuck.
 
Frank hasn't suggested anyone does what he's done he's just shown people what he's done, it seems to me that your problem isn't what the topic is about but what frank does in relation to the topic

You really need to sort yourself out and grow up, if all you're going to do is bash what a very popular member of this club does all you're going to do is make yourself look like an idiot
 
Stani1029 said:
regarding franks balancing, he made me a set of dished steels and the tyre fitter was super impressed with how spot on they were. frank is someone every car forum needs, from what ive seen hes never made mistakes and his ideas are endless and always of wow factor in my eyes.

regarding weight reduction behind the dash WHY?? if your serious about losing weight you lose all the weight you can like any fat ####### does when on a diet.

NEX- not all cars have bigger front brakes, my old lexus had bigger rear discs than front
Click to expand...

couldn't of said it better my self. without people like frank the world would be a boring place. you have to experiment with things. and it works for frank. if we dint experiment with stuff we wouldn't be where we are in the world today.

@lucifer i know its illegal but i once shut the rear brakes off my car for a experiment i blocked the outlets off on the master cylinder and i must say it was balls of fun (Y) but dangerous. but the threads not about needing rear brakes or not. its gone from a few things behind a dashboard to dodgy break drums ( which are probably safer than walking through a safari park) to brake bias and now something about needing rear breaks. im confused fwn
 
sr20bud said:
but the threads not about needing rear brakes or not. its gone from a few things behind a dashboard to dodgy break drums ( which are probably safer than walking through a safari park) to brake bias and now something about needing rear breaks. im confused fwn
Click to expand...

You're not the only one :laugh:
 
She' s pretending that target is Frank, Rumour has it he lightened her last wheelchair and it all collapsed in a crumpled heap when she hit the wall at speed (no brakes). She had to spend out on a decent new one with new uprated brakes and chassis and has sworn revenge ever since. Lol This is actually me joking but i was pushed. lol
 
As you can see i am not taking all these digs at me as seriously as you lot appear to be, I'm merely airing my personal opinion and unfortunately my many years of engineering experience seem to lead me into disbelief at what i see one member especially doing. It is not a personal attack,

I don't know Frank and I don't care what he does or for that matter what any of you do to your cars but you do have to do things right when it comes to modifying or it can get very dangerous very quickly imo.

I do have many years of engineering knowledge as well as tuning and modifying, And its all good here. (Y) My main issue all along is safety as a lot of you on here look to be quite young and seem to hold Frank and his ideas in such high regard.
Before you go off on one at me Research what you are about to argue with me about and see what comes back, if there is still an argument to be had or i'm proven wrong (nobody knows everything) i will be happy to roll over and accept that. And this is not meant to sound like an argument in case thats how it reads.
 
Oh no all defensive again, Read it through once more slowly and it will tell you i am not trying to start an argument. Deffo does not feel like a failure from where i'm sat my friend.
 
I thought this thread was closed?

Sure it evolved from weight reduction onto a more in depth discussion on brakes but plenty of threads do.....it's gone a little silly now though with the unrelated videos.

In Frank's defence what he has done is not unsafe per-se. All he has done is reduced the thermal mass of the brakes, how much so is not easy to calculate but all it will do is reduce the ability of the drum to deal with heavy heat loads. One could argue that the standard brakes are not up to much in general, even I managed to get a set of GTIR brakes blue at Brands Hatch.

Much like lightening a flywheel, they will still do their job adequately if treated well. If however you stuff major braking loads through them they may find their limits earlier. Lightweight flywheels offer greater acceleration but at the expense of thermal mass, abuse one and it may warp.....treat it well and it will last. I believe the same could be true in this case.

Back to the lightening side of things, although cutting things off is essentially free, I haven't seen many people opting for low mass batteries.....there's a simple way to cut a significant amount of weight, (all be it for around £100).....not strictly dashboard area though :eek: but there's a potential of say 9-10kgs in there assuming my scales were correct when measuring the stock K11 lump

BTW, Frank......how much weight did you shed from all the engine bay bracketry, alternator brackets etc etc?
 
Thank you Lowrider, constructive criticism :grinning: I too would be interested to know how much weight saving Frank has made, would like to know what the car weighs in total?
 

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