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SuperS Forged Turbo Build

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#1
After a long silence on the MSC forums, (life tends to get in the way of things sometimes), together with a general lack of blogs overall on the forums, I thought it would be good to make one of my SuperS engine build.

Before I jump in, a little back story will help to set the tone of what's to come...

For those of you who don't know me, I'm somewhat of an "old timer" on the MSC having been a member since 2001. I've owned a white '94 SuperS since 2001 and have kept and enjoyed it since. It was subject to a major restoration in 2007 and finally taken off the road and stored in 2011 when I skipped the country for a few years. After a lengthy time of being unused, it's about time it came out of the woodwork!. Before it retired, it was running a standard CG13DE long block with 264deg cams, Jenvey throttlebodies and an Omex 600 ECU, which made just under 100bhp@wheels.

After being lucky enough to acquire James (Nis) 2000 Sport+ Turbo back in 2014, I've become rather partial to the power delivery that a turbo offers. James and Ed (Fusion Motorsport) put this car together some 10+years ago and it's delivered on it's original intent since then which was to be a reliable and VERY fast road car.

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Cutting a long story short, after making some much needed tweaks, we reached the limits of the engine in its current form and after a thorough session at Surrey Rolling Road, we conceded at 200bhp@wheels from a hybrid GT2854R turbocharger. Power reached a limit due to a number of factors mainly down to the camshaft choice at the time but also because, (due to budget), the engine was built with a standard cylinder head. It also retains the OEM intake manifold, which has been proven to limit the engine's ability to breath above 6500rpm. All in all there were a lot of things holding the car back but a lot of lessons learned along the way. Dynos often get a bad reputation because of arguments over power figures but they prove themselves time and time again as an extremely valuable diagnostic tool.

After building up a very nice spec'd naturally aspirated CGA3DE engine for the SuperS, which had a significant amount of focus put into the cylinder head, I decided to change the scope to bring the best bits of each of my two K11's into one car. So the engine is about to be dismantled and will be re-built with a set of turbo pistons and a suitable camshaft for turbocharged application.

The main difference with this build is, rather than opting for a somewhat random selection of parts (turbo, off-the-shelf camshafts etc), we will be flow benching the cylinder head to obtain flow/lift curves for intake and exhaust, so we can grind camshafts that will fully optimize the flow potential of the head. We can then derive a realistic power target, turbocharger selection and final compression ratio to give us the best package possible. We'll also be scrapping the OEM intake manifold for a Jenvey turbo plenum to allow the head to flow efficiently.

Below is how the car currently stands after numerous modifications carried out over the last few years.

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Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#7
My M10 x 75 socket head caps were delivered today, which allowed me to get the engine up onto it's stand. So, the engine now sits ready for the head to be removed at my leisure.

Royal mail was good to me today. The 100mm square acrylic sheet I need to cc the head also turned up, which means I now have a full suite of equipment to cc the head and calculate the new piston bowl volume :geek:

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Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#8
Mocked up part of what will be our new inlet manifold tonight, mainly out of curiosity so I could have a good look at the overall system taper and start taking measurements to work out how much clearance I have to work with between the engine and bulkhead.

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The Jenvey inlet manifold was port matched when the head work was done. I had some CNC billet trumpets machined out to suit the size of the manifold for use inside the plenum. Those who have used the turbo plenums in the past have stated that the cast trumpets they offer as a default offering have been improved upon by many. Jenvey also state that their standard spun trumpets aren't strong enough for forced induction, so billet trumpets are the only option.

This is pretty low on the list of immediate priorities at the moment, but with the engine out and on the stand it's easy to have a more intimate look at things to come. In terms of the overall build, this is a modification that will allow the engine to breath significantly better than it does with the OEM intake manifold which is designed to produce early peak torque.

I'll re-visit this once the engine has been re-built, as there are more pressing items to sort currently :)

For those who are interested, the full Jenvey turbo plenums look like this.

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pork

Club Member
#9
Look cool man, saw a set of these on a build on retro rides, Renault 5 le car turbo......was awesome

His engine was was the pointing north/south, so had more room I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

SuperUno

Buy & Sell Member
#11
Mocked up part of what will be our new inlet manifold tonight, mainly out of curiosity so I could have a good look at the overall system taper and start taking measurements to work out how much clearance I have to work with between the engine and bulkhead.

View attachment 57128

The Jenvey inlet manifold was port matched when the head work was done. I had some CNC billet trumpets machined out to suit the size of the manifold for use inside the plenum. Those who have used the turbo plenums in the past have stated that the cast trumpets they offer as a default offering have been improved upon by many. Jenvey also state that their standard spun trumpets aren't strong enough for forced induction, so billet trumpets are the only option.

This is pretty low on the list of immediate priorities at the moment, but with the engine out and on the stand it's easy to have a more intimate look at things to come. In terms of the overall build, this is a modification that will allow the engine to breath significantly better than it does with the OEM intake manifold which is designed to produce early peak torque.

I'll re-visit this once the engine has been re-built, as there are more pressing items to sort currently :)

For those who are interested, the full Jenvey turbo plenums look like this.

View attachment 57129
I do think would be one way to install ITB's and still keep the standard ECU setup. You could install this and use the standard TB to do throttle job and you get the MAF values. Would still need mapping but would avoid re-wiring, and new ECU costs....
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#12
I do think would be one way to install ITB's and still keep the standard ECU setup. You could install this and use the standard TB to do throttle job and you get the MAF values. Would still need mapping but would avoid re-wiring, and new ECU costs....
That would be a very expensive way to do it. I've seen people adapt the plenum chamber from a GTIR on several applications in the past.

You can easily obtain a manifold from a 4EFE / 4EFTE and bastardise one of those. Mulholland in Japan used to do it, so there must be merit there.

Or Matt has pre-made tubular manifolds available off the shelf that are machined to accept a standard throttlebody. These are made to improve mid range torque though, so selection would depend upon what one was aiming for, (he's mainly aimed at the rally community).

Either way the car needs to be re-mapped, so there would be costs involved even if it's mapping the stock ecu as opposed to standalone.

I may go ITBs if there's enough room but they would be the 30mm short versions. If not then I would have to compromise with a single throttle, which could potentially make the overall throttle response a tad sluggish due to the increased plenum volume. It's still very much on the drawing board at the moment in terms of final selection.

Planning an electric water pump I guess?

Liking this build - please keep up the posts :)
I'm undecided at the moment. This engine was originally spec'd to be revving to around 8500rpm where cooling problems can arise with a stock mechanical pump, so I spec'd in an EWP to provide more flexibility. This engine will be spec'd to peak around 7500rpm, which means a standard water pump is viable again. I may revert back to a stock pump for simplicity sake. Something to think about while I'm working on the main hardware.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#13
With such lovely weather, it was a shame to waste it sitting around watching the royal wedding (sorry Harry & Megan), so I decided to crack on and take the head off the engine.

Cam cover off, cams out which revealed a nice set of shimless buckets.

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One of the benefits of running a CGA3 is the longer valve stems. This will make shimming in a new set of cams significantly easier as you can either go for a set of standard followers from someone like Catcams and use tophats to shim or, you can go for individually ground buckets, (which is what this head is).

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Studs all undone leaving just the short block.

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The head now rests on its side which will allow the last of the oil, that I wasn't able to mop up prior to removal, to drain out.

I'll make up a box with cardboard dividers in it, so I can number and place the individual buckets, springs and valves from all but one cylinder. The cylinder which will be flowed will have the springs replaced for light springs to allow valve positions to be easily set.

I'll wait for the flow data to come back before doing anything further, so this will be the last update for a few weeks :)

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Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#15
Ok, so I couldn't stay away and I decided to cc the cylinder head before it goes of to be flow tested. That way I can get a head start on sorting a piston order.

Combustion chambers come out at 23cc on the dot. Factoring in the head gasket dimensions and deck height, that puts the piston bowl volume at 14.4cc. We'll be going for a decent cam in this engine, so we've decided to go with a 9:1 compression ratio.
 
#16
I've been considering a electric water pump for the power gains but don't like the extra worry of reliability,
So I've thought about running a oversize water pump pulley to under drive the impeller, have you heard of anyone doing this before on a cg13 ?
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#17
I've been considering a electric water pump for the power gains but don't like the extra worry of reliability,
So I've thought about running a oversize water pump pulley to under drive the impeller, have you heard of anyone doing this before on a cg13 ?
Yes, it's quite a common modification in Japan and oversize pulleys were quite a common thing listed on various tuning sites. I actually have an underdrive pulley on the engine already from TTV Racing, which achieves the same thing, all be it a more expensive route :confused:

The Davies Craig EWP I have are proven to be reliable. I also considered one because it was possible to run the fans and pump after engine shut-down which helps with heat soak. You also have greater control over pump operation and target coolant temperatures too.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#20
Preliminary piston design through. Just finalising ring pack size, type and awaiting for a response back from the manufacturer after supplying all the required data (max rpm, power, boost, rod end sizing, block type etc).

I decided to go with JE over CP this time around as their lead times are considerably quicker at only 3 weeks. Given the current engine has been running a JE piston without any issues, it was a bit of a no brainier considering there was no price difference.

piston design.jpg
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#21
Pistons ordered. Settled on a piston size to suit a 72.25mm bore which JE supply a ring pack to suit in 1.0/1.2/2.8 format. This gives more flexibility with bore to gasket geometry given the limitation on MLS gasket ID. It's tight but doable :)

I also ordered up a custom tapered ring compressor from TotalSeal, to make ring installation much simpler and to mitigate the chance of accidental block surface damage during installation.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#25
Pistons arrived. A little outside of the typical turnaround but, since I ordered a few extra goodies, it took an extra week.

Regardless, the pistons turned out as expected. Customary picture attached ;)

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Next steps are to get in touch with TTV to make up a custom coilpack flywheel to suit my Helix 200mm clutch cover. Then get the block off for machining and the entire rotating assembly off for a full balance.
 

DEdgeMac

Buy & Sell Member
#26
Nice. Looks like a well thought out blue printed build with the custom work, it's great to see someone putting in this level of detail with these engines.

Where can generic over-sized forged pistons be sourced from and what kind of price are they for the CG?

Most of the cars I've ever owned have always had a fairly good choice of off the shelf forged options at fair prices but from the little I know about these it doesn't seem to be the case?
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#27
Nice. Looks like a well thought out blue printed build with the custom work, it's great to see someone putting in this level of detail with these engines.

Where can generic over-sized forged pistons be sourced from and what kind of price are they for the CG?

Most of the cars I've ever owned have always had a fairly good choice of off the shelf forged options at fair prices but from the little I know about these it doesn't seem to be the case?
There are no off the shelf forged pistons for the CG per se, at least not for turbocharged application. That's the sole reason prices aren't favorable. Plenty of people whine about it sigthing 'Micra tax' but in reality a custom piston for any engine is going to be in the same ballpark.

For NA engines Matt keeps a stock of forged pistons but these are low volume batches but as close to off the shelp you can get. For turbocharged application it's custom. Most common manufacturers are either CP or JE and they will machine them from the nearest sized forging. In reality though you can use anyone really.

I've used both CP and JE before and, while there are subtle differences, they fulfil the same function.

I went a little extra on this particular design as it gives me greater scope for camshaft choice which will be dictated by what the head can flow. I also beefed up the skirts as I'm going to beat on this engine. Most people opt for a basic dished piston without valve cut outs and that's fine for the most part. My last set were essentially a basic dished piston.

Price wise you're looking anything from £700 to over £900 for a set ranging from a basic piston to one with more options like lateral gas ports, contact reduction grooves, skirt coatings, milling operations etc.
 
#28
Looking forward to seeing how this goes! How would one even start learning about this stuff? Nothing I know from working on slow speed two strokes seems to transfer directly to these tiny CG engine and everything is so fiddly :confused:
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#29
Looking forward to seeing how this goes! How would one even start learning about this stuff? Nothing I know from working on slow speed two strokes seems to transfer directly to these tiny CG engine and everything is so fiddly :confused:
I am too. The more I get into it, the more interesting it's getting. What's fun with this build is we're basing things entirely on the capabilities of the cylinder head and optimising everything around that as best as possible. It'll still be a while before I get a full run down on the flow/lift curves and port velocities. The company I'm using are extremely busy simply because they're so good at what they do, so it's in a fairly big queue before it finally makes it to the flowbench.

There's a huge repository of information strewn across the web from the usual suspects, Toyota 4EFTE, Nissan SR20, Mitsubishi 4G63 etc which is transferable to a point. There are some subtleties which relate to the CG engine which need to be overcome but that's the case with most engines.

I've had my hand in the Micra realm for a fair while and I just so happen to live in very close proximity to Fusion Motorsport, Roland Alsop Engineering and Surrey Rolling Road a.k.a Syvecs, so I have as good a support network as it's going to get for me.

We've got a few more things we're working on in the background. Myself and another member on here are quietly working on a nice gearbox solution that will happily handle the power / torque reliably for circuit racing applications with LSD capability.
 
#30
I am too. The more I get into it, the more interesting it's getting. What's fun with this build is we're basing things entirely on the capabilities of the cylinder head and optimising everything around that as best as possible. It'll still be a while before I get a full run down on the flow/lift curves and port velocities. The company I'm using are extremely busy simply because they're so good at what they do, so it's in a fairly big queue before it finally makes it to the flowbench.

There's a huge repository of information strewn across the web from the usual suspects, Toyota 4EFTE, Nissan SR20, Mitsubishi 4G63 etc which is transferable to a point. There are some subtleties which relate to the CG engine which need to be overcome but that's the case with most engines.

I've had my hand in the Micra realm for a fair while and I just so happen to live in very close proximity to Fusion Motorsport, Roland Alsop Engineering and Surrey Rolling Road a.k.a Syvecs, so I have as good a support network as it's going to get for me.

We've got a few more things we're working on in the background. Myself and another member on here are quietly working on a nice gearbox solution that will happily handle the power / torque reliably for circuit racing applications with LSD capability.
:ROFLMAO:
Think I might need to pick up some books on this as I've never even looked into modifying an engine to this extent, normally just repairs and ad-hoc modifications to keep them running to the next port during those "oh ####" moments.

I do have a question that you can probably answer given the extent of your modifications; where abouts do you find a standalone ecu for a 1.4?
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#31
:ROFLMAO:
Think I might need to pick up some books on this as I've never even looked into modifying an engine to this extent, normally just repairs and ad-hoc modifications to keep them running to the next port during those "oh ####" moments.

I do have a question that you can probably answer given the extent of your modifications; where abouts do you find a standalone ecu for a 1.4?
There are a LOT of options when it comes to standalone ECU choice. Since there's nothing that's plug-and-play for the Micra standalone wise, it's mainly a question of budget. The typical go to options these days are something like Megasquirt, Emerald, Omex all of which are widely supported and provide plenty of capability for the cost.

If it's simple NA tuning there's Tornado systems who can remap the Motronic units for the 1.0/1.4 coilpack engines but there isn't a whole lot of development, if any for turbocharged application.
 
#32
Pretty much I have a 1.4 engine + transmission with 60kish that I'm currently stripping down and plan to rebuild slowly as time allows. Budget isn't a massive concern (within reason) as I'm treating this as a learning experience. It didn't come with an ECU though. I definitely have plans towards a turbo but not to the same extent as yourself.

Is this what you started from?
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#34
Pretty much I have a 1.4 engine + transmission with 60kish that I'm currently stripping down and plan to rebuild slowly as time allows. Budget isn't a massive concern (within reason) as I'm treating this as a learning experience. It didn't come with an ECU though. I definitely have plans towards a turbo but not to the same extent as yourself.

Is this what you started from?
Hahaha! Wow, that's a blast from the past.

Yes, I bought the car from James some years ago after he started a family. I was actually behind the scenes when that video was shot. Fuel was so cheap back then too!
 
#36
Hahaha! Wow, that's a blast from the past.

Yes, I bought the car from James some years ago after he started a family. I was actually behind the scenes when that video was shot. Fuel was so cheap back then too!
I don't think "cheap" is a word thats ever been used to describe fuel whilst I've been driving in the UK :LOL:

I'd like a similar outcome (i.e. quick but still reliable) but we'll see what happens given that I have no idea what I'm doing with an engine smaller than my pc.
 
#38
Finished stripping down the engine of all the good stuff, which has been bagged and tagged. The rest is scrap...
Soooo... I was doing this but completely forgot to put the bolts in the bags for future reference re sizes as they're all going the journey. You wouldn't happen to have a list would you?
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#39
Soooo... I was doing this but completely forgot to put the bolts in the bags for future reference re sizes as they're all going the journey. You wouldn't happen to have a list would you?
I'm afraid not. I only bag things because it's nice for storage and easy to come back to.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#40
A small update. I'vs spent most of the past 2 weeks chasing a few leads to help improve the CG engine further.

Another CGA3 donor engine has been secured so I can start off with an untouched block. New oil pump along with a set of chains and guides is also being sourced.

This week's golden moment has been helping to push the CG engine a little further by upgrading all the major fastenings in the block. Namely head and main cap bolts. It's common knowledge that ARP 8740 chromoly studs from a Ford 1.6L work as suitable head studs but these have some limitations that I'm not content to live with on this engine.

Cutting a long story short, ARP were kind enough to help me track down some suitably sized studs that would work with the CG block layout for both head studs and main cap studs. They are all available in ARP2000, which for most is total overkill but will provide a bit of extra assurance since I intend to increase both power and rpm on this build.

I'm not going to publish a big lot of part numbers just yet as these need to be tested. So I'll act as guineapig for the time being until they're proven to fit. Based on initial measurements though, there shouldn't be any issues.

If all goes well, I'm happy to spread the word so those of us who want to go a bit OTT can.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#41
Micra big shaft upgrade is about to commence.

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Just waiting for a second set of outer CVs to arrive so they can be sent off for a small machine op to suit the K11 hub seals and ABS reluctor rings (future proofing for traction control).

Once they're back, we can get started on the mock up shafts :geek:
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#44
Curious, where abouts do you get all your parts from Dave? Is it just Nissan directly and anything else is custom?
Of that lot, the CVs and shafts were from Febest and the reluctor rings from UK car parts.

The shaft there are only for making donor shafts from. Custom ones will be made for the final setup.

In general though I get almost all my parts from Matt Humphris as he's the only person who seems able to source genuine Nissan parts. Nissan have pretty much stopped supporting the K11 now and obtaining genuine parts is now a challenge.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#45
Took a trip out to Matt Humphris' this morning to pick up a boot load of parts. Mainly all the parts needed for an engine re-build, (chains, tensioners, guides, gaskets, seals etc).

I also bagged a fresh CGA3DE engine, which has the last rev of cam cover on it. Been after one for a while as the breathers are a little easier to route if you have a top mounted turbo.

Anyway, that's now up on the engine stand awaiting its strip down :)

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Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#46
4 CVs dropped off for machining today, should be done over the weekend and ready to collect next week. That will allow us to assemble them into the hybrid uprights and commence measuring up for mock-up shafts.

Also made a start on stripping down the donor CGA3, mostly just ancillaries for now though.

It's a fine engine and it certainly doesn't look like it's had a hard life at all, being an auto and all. Removal of the middle idler puller revealed a hand written date of '15.1.02'
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and removal of the cam cover revealed a date stamp of '03 Jan 2002' on the baffle plate.
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Stripping this engine down is certainly going to be fun :)
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#47
CVs back from the machinists :cool:

The uprights need a little bit of a touch with a carbide burr to allow the larger body to clear the casting but otherwise they fit like a glove :)

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Low Rider

Poindexter
Staff member
#49
I use the Nissan Note hub nut which is Nyloc, and then a load of thread lock. I found the action of the LSD was undoing the NS hub nut!
That's quite interesting. I never had that issue with a Gripper LSD. I don't with the AP Suretrac either but that's much less harsh.

I'd have to opt for a different nut though as these are larger CVs from an N14 GTIR (M22x1.5 vs M20x1.5).
 

SuperUno

Buy & Sell Member
#50
This is with the Suretrac diff, I spotted it as I use witness paint on hub nuts. By the end of the first event using the car with the LSD it had undone by a bout 3/4 of a turn....

I get the same effect on our MGZR with a Quaife LSD
 
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