Running like a dream then no start at Aldi!!! :-) Help Please

3

3706mht

Evening folks, car been running like a dream recent months then last week ..... argh ..... drove to Aldi (started perfectly beforehand as always) ... came out and with me bags and no start!

Can hear a click, also can hear a buzz from right hand side of steering wheel.

Went and got another car and linked jump leads to battery and first time start! So don't think anything to do with starter motor or starting components.

Battery a Halford one and 2 years old, maybe 3 absolute tops.

Assumed it was alternator (was original part number and fit! .... 24 years old) .... changed that for a genuine new Bosch refurb unit I picked up at an amazing price... from Bosch and a Gates fan belt. The fan belt was in fairness working but very crazed and worn.

Just fitted both and used another battery to start the flat battery and when I stop the car.....nothing!!! No start, back to the buzz when key turned to the ignition point.

Could use some urgent help please folks .... my stupid assumptions and parts ordering mean we without car just now.

On the positive side, those parts were very very old (and seemingly still good) but at least have solid replacement. But I'm at a loss what to look at next. Help would be very gratefully received.

Many thanks in advance
 
Hi Nissan boy, yes only starting when jumped off a battery out the garage. Not working off battery in car.

No didn't test the one on the car but the one used to start it (off car) tests 'full' when connected to a decent battery charger. No error codes. Seems good.

Just reading on-line and seems 'sudden death' of batteries is not uncommon? Not seen it myself .... in fact the Halfords (low price one) put on it about 3 years back replaced the original Unipart one that was on since new back in 1994!!! Kid you not.

I let it run for maybe 25 mins. When I reved the car, the USB cigarette device showed increased voltage. I guess that might prove the alternator is working correctly ... bit primitive science but think that is logical.

Just looking at the mo for a test to prove the battery is good or bad.
 
The only way to properly test a battery is under load, and a car charger can't put load on it

Reading your post at first had me thinking I was going to be delivering some bad news. Best case a starter motor or worse case it had seized, but that doesn't sound like the problem since it starts with a donor battery and you've ruled out alternator by replacing it

The problem seems to be the battery. I'd bet if you could load test it you'd find it isn't putting out enough cold crank amps and so it doesn't have enough juice to start the engine, even though it is fully charging with your charger and it is staying charged well enough in the car to keep your accessories working as well as your spark plugs firing, it just doesn't have that instantaneous womph it needs to get the engine going.



It's not an old battery but something has gone wrong with it. Tips to make a car battery last longer, applies to both lead-acid and calcium, but not to lithium:
  • internal resistance in a battery means it loses 0.8 to 1% of it's charge per day dependent on temperature, they need to be kept above 75% which works out at roughly starting the car and driving it somewhere at least once every 2-3 weeks, or else use a battery maintainer
  • don't charge a cold/frozen battery, it will damage it and it could explode
  • If you aren't planning on using your car for a few days, turn off as many accessories as you can while driving home to get the battery as highly charged in the car as you can. The lower percentage charge you store the battery at the quicker it will degrade.
  • Don't run accessories or lights without the car on, avoid leaving lights on/doors open that sort of thing
  • Don't use the alternator to charge the battery if your battery discharges, the alternator isn't designed for charging just for maintaining high level of charge. If you use the alternator to charge the battery you'll wear out your alternator (it'll get hot and wear out the internals/bearings) and it'll put the charge into the battery far too quickly damaging the battery too
  • adding on to the last point, don't jump start or bump start if you can avoid it. If the battery is flat enough to require either of these then it'll only add to your issues once the battery is damaged from full charging it on the alternator. Some times you have no choice though obviously if you broke down on a motorway.
  • Batteries removed from cars need to be put on charge every 2 weeks or stored long term with a battery maintainer attached, in the shop while getting a new one try to get one as recently manufactured as possible so it isn't stored on a shelf for a long time
  • Check your car for a negative/earth leak
 
Sorry forgot to add, load tester look like this

P7cfVHX.jpg


or this

yJq24ck.jpg


there's resistors/carbon in them that gets hot so it can test the battery under load to confirm it as the issue. The AA has one in all their vans if you have homestart you could get them to test you battery.
 
MattInARedMicra said:
The only way to properly test a battery is under load, and a car charger can't put load on it

Reading your post at first had me thinking I was going to be delivering some bad news. Best case a starter motor or worse case it had seized, but that doesn't sound like the problem since it starts with a donor battery and you've ruled out alternator by replacing it

The problem seems to be the battery. I'd bet if you could load test it you'd find it isn't putting out enough cold crank amps and so it doesn't have enough juice to start the engine, even though it is fully charging with your charger and it is staying charged well enough in the car to keep your accessories working as well as your spark plugs firing, it just doesn't have that instantaneous womph it needs to get the engine going.



It's not an old battery but something has gone wrong with it. Tips to make a car battery last longer, applies to both lead-acid and calcium, but not to lithium:
  • internal resistance in a battery means it loses 0.8 to 1% of it's charge per day dependent on temperature, they need to be kept above 75% which works out at roughly starting the car and driving it somewhere at least once every 2-3 weeks, or else use a battery maintainer
  • don't charge a cold/frozen battery, it will damage it and it could explode
  • If you aren't planning on using your car for a few days, turn off as many accessories as you can while driving home to get the battery as highly charged in the car as you can. The lower percentage charge you store the battery at the quicker it will degrade.
  • Don't run accessories or lights without the car on, avoid leaving lights on/doors open that sort of thing
  • Don't use the alternator to charge the battery if your battery discharges, the alternator isn't designed for charging just for maintaining high level of charge. If you use the alternator to charge the battery you'll wear out your alternator (it'll get hot and wear out the internals/bearings) and it'll put the charge into the battery far too quickly damaging the battery too
  • adding on to the last point, don't jump start or bump start if you can avoid it. If the battery is flat enough to require either of these then it'll only add to your issues once the battery is damaged from full charging it on the alternator. Some times you have no choice though obviously if you broke down on a motorway.
  • Batteries removed from cars need to be put on charge every 2 weeks or stored long term with a battery maintainer attached, in the shop while getting a new one try to get one as recently manufactured as possible so it isn't stored on a shelf for a long time
  • Check your car for a negative/earth leak
Click to expand...
Hi Matt and thanks for taking the time to reply. Yes logic says the battery. Think what was so odd is that it always starts and eagerly. The car was used to start and drive maybe 20 mins and then out the shop and was zero except for a buzz and a click.

I was pleased about the click as it suggested the starter was ok. And as you say, with another battery connected, the starter does its thing beautifully.

Mind, the negative/earth leak is worth to check over.

Thanks for the battery summary .... I guess we expect some of this stuff to last forever. Mind will be sourcing a higher grade battery if it proves be that .... which seems increasingly likely. I have a Bosch S5 on the 106 and whilst it's not cheap, it is bombproof.

And on that point, interesting .... ECP lists an S4 Bosch at £139.99 down from £155! A search on ebay finds the exact same part number for £66.00 .... and ebay have a 20% off offer this week ..... and guess who is selling that same item? .... yes it's the ECP Ebay shop !!!! :) ..... in reality it is £53 I think it was. Some price difference.
 
MattInARedMicra said:
Sorry forgot to add, load tester look like this

P7cfVHX.jpg


or this

yJq24ck.jpg


there's resistors/carbon in them that gets hot so it can test the battery under load to confirm it as the issue. The AA has one in all their vans if you have homestart you could get them to test you battery.
Click to expand...

Yes might be time get one of these depending on price. Interestingly we have AA breakdown on our bank card. That would have been a very smart thing to do before I started buying bits and pieces!!!! But for next time good advice for sure.
 
3706mht said:
Hi Matt and thanks for taking the time to reply. Yes logic says the battery. Think what was so odd is that it always starts and eagerly. The car was used to start and drive maybe 20 mins and then out the shop and was zero except for a buzz and a click.

I was pleased about the click as it suggested the starter was ok. And as you say, with another battery connected, the starter does its thing beautifully.

Mind, the negative/earth leak is worth to check over.

Thanks for the battery summary .... I guess we expect some of this stuff to last forever. Mind will be sourcing a higher grade battery if it proves be that .... which seems increasingly likely. I have a Bosch S5 on the 106 and whilst it's not cheap, it is bombproof.

And on that point, interesting .... ECP lists an S4 Bosch at £139.99 down from £155! A search on ebay finds the exact same part number for £66.00 .... and ebay have a 20% off offer this week ..... and guess who is selling that same item? .... yes it's the ECP Ebay shop !!!! :) ..... in reality it is £53 I think it was. Some price difference.
Click to expand...
I also noticed the thing about the battery the car came with. Either they made them better in the past or it's something to do with them going straight in the car from the factory, not quite sure

It is very puzzling, Not sure how long you spent in aldi but I'd have thought the engine would still be warm when you come out, meaning that with the oil less thick it takes less amps to turn over the starter, strange time for it to pick to break you'd expect it to fail on a cold winter morning (or worse, on a cold winter evening after you got off work)
 
I've done the same thing before, one thing I like about the micra though is that even if you do keep throwing parts at it until it works it won't leave your wallet too empty

Wish it was easier to get the work done that I can't do myself though, feel like a lot of time they don't want to work on it down the garage because it's old and they think "it's only worth £200 tops now, why would you want to spend another £300 on it"
 
MattInARedMicra said:
I also noticed the thing about the battery the car came with. Either they made them better in the past or it's something to do with them going straight in the car from the factory, not quite sure

It is very puzzling, Not sure how long you spent in aldi but I'd have thought the engine would still be warm when you come out, meaning that with the oil less thick it takes less amps to turn over the starter, strange time for it to pick to break you'd expect it to fail on a cold winter morning (or worse, on a cold winter evening after you got off work)
Click to expand...

Was just 20 mins in store. Weather was good and car has always had synthetic oils in it. Was so odd, literally 25 mins earlier it started a dream. Always does. In fact we were away on hols in May for a month and came back and started first time as always.

And yes the Unipart red battery lasted forever. Best I recall it was the original.

I've ordered a Bosch S4 given the good price and ebay discount. A bit rash given I already shelled out for the alternator and belt but it seems logical if a little untested. Mind I am going to test the one off the car. I'd like to know if it has died so badly. There could be a case for taking it back to Halfords ... then again ....

The alternator I found from a German ebay seller and was a sealed Bosch genuine part shipped for about £60! Not bad price as it goes for a genuine part but could have been avoided. It was in the gen Bosch box and had the genuine Bosch plastic seal on it. In reality I can list the removed good one for maybe £30 .... there are folks on ebay selling for between £25 (again ironically from a breaker in Germany + shipping) to £45 .... for an old 95 original one. I guess if I got £30 it covers over half the price of a quality battery and gets me a new Alt that will last the next 24 years :)
 
MattInARedMicra said:
I've done the same thing before, one thing I like about the micra though is that even if you do keep throwing parts at it until it works it won't leave your wallet too empty

Wish it was easier to get the work done that I can't do myself though, feel like a lot of time they don't want to work on it down the garage because it's old and they think "it's only worth £200 tops now, why would you want to spend another £300 on it"
Click to expand...

Yeah agree that. I budget £200 a year for welding, track rods, batteries, HT leads and the like and for me that works. £200 on a car only worth £200 maybe but it is (despite this rare odd issue) bomb proof in the main. And I do feel that once you've bottomed out the shake down items over time, that it does pay back 10 fold in the main. And so easy to work on. But yes my MOT place do scoff at it some.

So this year I'd say £60 on the alternator (and will get £30 back) £15 on a decent Gates fan belt .... £53 now for a quality Bosch battery with 4 year warranty and I think that's it. None things that should need touching for a good while. Oh and an oil change, filters and the like. Another £35 maybe when there's an ECP 40% sale? But that would be for any car I guess regardless of the value.

Strangely MOT is Saturday so fingers crossed all will be will. Think it will in fact although a slight question mark on the lower front cross member. There is an entire front panel with cross member, slam panel, brace and bumper mounts (all new unused) for £30 on ebay right now so might buy that and do some grinding and welding ... hopefully next Summer :)

Is not bad economics overall is it?
 
Even weirder ... linked the red and black feeds via jump leads to a known good battery and guess what? Yes it starts perfectly.

And yet the Halfords battery (one off car) when connected to the charger reads FULL and doesn't charge! And the little viewing window on the battery reads green which if understand correctly means it's fully charged and OK??? I guess as Matt mentioned yesterday, the only real way to tell is to get a battery tester.

On that point anyone know of a battery booster with built in tester? I was looking at the Suaoki G19S (as a heavy duty charger stick in the boot) ... like this one....

Suaoki G19 Jump Starter 1000A Peak 24V 12V with 24000mAh Battery Pack Emergency Flashlight for Car Truck Bus Boat SUV: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

Suaoki G19 Jump Starter 1000A Peak 24V 12V with 24000mAh Battery Pack Emergency Flashlight for Car Truck Bus Boat SUV: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive
www.amazon.co.uk

But would be good have a decent charger with built in tester that would fit in the boot. Bit over the top you might say but we taking it right the way down to the bottom edge of Spain see friends in a couple of weeks so thought it might be £100 well spent.

What I did notice is that the positive is very slightly loose. It will turn on the post with some effort. I've ordered some new post adaptors ... see if that helps with the new Bosch that should be here shortly. Have to say if it turns out be a loose post I'd be a bit miffed but it was not loose loose just not rock solid tight. Been the same last couple of years.

Fingers crossed we have a solution ... we know today later when DHL arrive!!! :)
 
This won't be much help because I don't know the brands and it was a while ago, but my dad used to have a yellow one. It was a battery booster for jump starting, it had a battery tester function (carbon pile) and it was a charger which you could change the amps on (2-4 amps for bike batteries, 6 amps for small cars, 8-10 amps for larger vehicles and pickup trucks/4x4s). It also had flashing/spinning amber lights and a torch.

Sounds like something that would be well worth the spend if you plan to go to Europe. It's law over there that you have warning triangles, lights and a high vis for everybody in the car in the event of a breakdown, so the flashing lights function would come in handy if you break down for another reason because you can place it 150 feet behind the car next to the warning triangle. The only thing is you do need a place to plug it in frequently, it contains an internal car battery and so the same rules about plugging it in every 2-3 weeks applies, if it's a long trip. Some of them are lithium batteries but those ones do tend to be more expensive.
 
Last edited:
At less than £120, I have bought many cars with long MOT in good running order & got two or three years motoring out of them without wasting any more money messing about on it.

I Just put petrol in the back & the Mrs & myself in the front & just drive the thing, out & about when the sun is out, having fun doing what we want to do.

Suaoki G19 Jump Starter 1000A Peak 24V 12V with 24000mAh Battery Pack Emergency Flashlight for Car Truck Bus Boat SUV: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

Suaoki G19 Jump Starter 1000A Peak 24V 12V with 24000mAh Battery Pack Emergency Flashlight for Car Truck Bus Boat SUV: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive
www.amazon.co.uk

Disregard that overpriced male jewellery superfluous charger/jump starter that is useful for starting a breakdown call out service, as it will almost certainly never be used for ordinary private motoring runabout needs where jump leads are all that is needed. :rolleyes:
 
plmval said:
At less than £120, I have bought many cars with long MOT in good running order & got two or three years motoring out of them without wasting any more money messing about on it.

I Just put petrol in the back & the Mrs & myself in the front & just drive the thing, out & about when the sun is out, having fun doing what we want to do.

Suaoki G19 Jump Starter 1000A Peak 24V 12V with 24000mAh Battery Pack Emergency Flashlight for Car Truck Bus Boat SUV: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive

Suaoki G19 Jump Starter 1000A Peak 24V 12V with 24000mAh Battery Pack Emergency Flashlight for Car Truck Bus Boat SUV: Amazon.co.uk: Automotive
www.amazon.co.uk

Disregard that overpriced male jewellery superfluous charger/jump starter that is useful for starting a breakdown call out service, as it will almost certainly never be used for ordinary private motoring runabout needs where jump leads are all that is needed. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Tend to agree on the male jewelry but we all have purchase weaknesses. :) ... it was more the distance and nature of the journey that causing me to do the due diligence (OTT) thing. Got a nice little boot full of useful repair/support gear that I hope also never gets used. In fairness it never has over a lot of miles and years. ..... he says tempting fate!!!

Yes I know your 'use it till the wheels fall off ' logic .... and I sort of agree the concept. Myself I prefer a little left of center and keeping the patient alive as long as possible 'until the wheels fall off' and keep it looking standard, running nice and avoiding the scrap yards. I'd say yours is more pragmatic and a better economic model but I like the vested interest in keeping old runners running longer.

And joking aside, I do have the budget to buy a new middle end model (and we have come close to doing so when the new XC90 was launched a short while back) but with such a hex being placed on diesels, with electric looming (maybe) in the wings to become genuinely useful and manageable, then part of the keeping our old Japanese and French units going is that uncertainty in the market that I suspect will continue the next 8-10 years until the 10th generation 18v VW Golf comes out and the market changes forever.
 
Hi. I know the ignition switch goes on the pre facelift.maybe same as you heard a buzzing from the steering wheel area where switch is located
 
r-reg-sr said:
Hi. I know the ignition switch goes on the pre facelift.maybe same as you heard a buzzing from the steering wheel area where switch is located
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion SR. Is a good point ... the car got stolen maybe 5 years back and all the locks were wrenched including the ignition. I replaced with an equally old one and worn one and it's hung together since then but of course having replaced all the locks via breaker parts....we have 4 colour coded keys!!!! :)

I did pick a full replacement lock kit up off ebay early this year at good money but not summoned up the energy to fit them all. Maybe now would be the time do the ignition and petrol cover at a minimum ... down to 2 colour keys but also eliminating the ignition as a source of issue ... and we have had that buzz a few times over the last year, regardless of the recent days alternator / battery issue.

Have fitted the new Bosch battery and so far so good ... after all that it could just of been a short lived cheap battery. But never known one good from perfect to dead (within 20 mins) to absolutely not working and show the simply signs that it should be ok. Very strange one.
 
Quote: “Got a nice little boot full of useful repair/support gear”

I have been using old Micras since1997 when a former girlfriend introduced me to her K10 that was on 167,000 miles & breakdown free, the last time I saw it.

My only breakdown failure was a loss of all power, idle only in 2004 when the AA diagnosed dirt in the main jet & improvised using engine vacuum to quickly suck it clear on my 1987 K10 that was on 148000 miles at the time.

Quote: “Yes I know your 'use it till the wheels fall off ' logic”.

When they become to ropey for my liking with too many pending jobs building up, rather than spending my time on it, I always sell them on as good runners with long MOT, for more than I bought them for in order to minimise my overall motoring costs. (y)
 
plmval said:
Quote: “Got a nice little boot full of useful repair/support gear”

I have been using old Micras since1997 when a former girlfriend introduced me to her K10 that was on 167,000 miles & breakdown free, the last time I saw it.

My only breakdown failure was a loss of all power, idle only in 2004 when the AA diagnosed dirt in the main jet & improvised using engine vacuum to quickly suck it clear on my 1987 K10 that was on 148000 miles at the time.

Quote: “Yes I know your 'use it till the wheels fall off ' logic”.

When they become to ropey for my liking with too many pending jobs building up, rather than spending my time on it, I always sell them on as good runners with long MOT, for more than I bought them for in order to minimise my overall motoring costs. (y)
Click to expand...

Yeah I cannot knock that approach Plmval ... I will reflect on that next time I'm lying underneath ours in the cold and rain with a 13mm socket and a bolt sheers! :)

Luckily it's Summer and work on it seems "almost" fun recent days. How quick we forget the misery :)

In our case, I think we actually crossed the 'service and maintenance' desert. Over way too long a time, almost all components have been apart, repaired, anti seize grease applied and lego'ed back together. So taking apart is no longer the painful process it once was. And 'most' work is predictable. Welding has been the major cost I guess over time but again we are at quite a happy place now with ours ... bar a slightly fragile cross member to be done next year maybe.

It's got to the part with our 2 cars where we know way more than we don't know. And barring a smash or an engine blow, then we can do 'most' stuff on both ... well with a lot of hand holding from MSC'ers that is.

But I have to say your approach is more logical as an economic principal. I tend to get dragged in a bit more than you do :)
 
Goddamn Jesus Christ it was tough on my way to the surfing beaches of North Devon when my one & only Micra breakdown occured on Exmoor in 2004 lost me an hour " On The Beach", waiting for the AA to sort it & get me on my way. (y)

References;



https://www.exmoor-nationalpark.gov.uk/

Just a walk in the park

Enjoy!
 
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