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PollyMobiles Rebuild

blimey he quoted me £30 for couple of welds taking bout a weeko_O

for that much i could get a massive sheet of steel to practice plug welding hundreds of times.

well, guess I'll have to do it myself. ordered summore 1.6mm stick for tenner
surely you can get it down to me and back for a tenner? did you check parcels2go?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
surely you can get it down to me and back for a tenner? did you check parcels2go?
ah didn't think of that, was looking at royalmail:oops:

ooh yeah on parcel2go i could send it to & from urs for total of £10:D using Collect+ but will take 3days, although considering I'll be taking my time to carefully recheck clearances & rebuild the engine anyway and that i have my moms car for a month, the timing seems alright. you sure ur ok with doing this for me? really appreciate ur kind offer ;)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
as i was gonna weld it myself tomorrow, i took all night drilling all these holes in a spare plate to practice hundreds of plug welds before the real thing

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practice makes perfect eh

oh btw Ed almost forgot, could you also help weld the baffle cover plate onto the oil pickup when i made it? will send all the pieces together.
i'm thinking just to make sure the pickup, cover plate and baffle units in exactly the right position before welding, since the position of the cover plate is so critical, maybe i should also make a rough jig that holds the pickup in the right place relative to the sump?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
k practicing plug welding tday and trying various techniques n settings and at low amps its just clumping to one side and high amps its a plasma cutter

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so i tried reverse polarity and Ohh! its worked, what happened there?

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twas set at 25a

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tried summore to make sure its not a duff one and sure enough it fills em consistantly:D

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tried various amps to see what happens and seems 30a is just about the right region for full penetration

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could it be the reverse polarity? so tried both and nope they do the same job

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was slightly chuffed but then i welding at other spots and it was less consistant again.

what i found was that the gap between the backplate and the foreplate is very important.
if the plates are touching and the amps set right, the weld pool stays within the hole and just fills it in thoroughly.
if there's a gap, the pool just seeps to one side and if i try adding more metal once the weld pool brims up, the whole pool gets too hot and either melts through or burns back the edges of the hole into a bigger hole.

was tempted to try weld the baffle when the welding went well but don't think i should chance it incase it all goes wrong and left with a bigger mess so its best letting the pro Ed do it proper for me:D
 
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No problem mate, yeah, if you get it all set up for me (cleaned up and in the right position) i can weld it up no problem. i wouldnt want to weld it in the wrong place!!
Ed
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
No problem mate, yeah, if you get it all set up for me (cleaned up and in the right position) i can weld it up no problem. i wouldnt want to weld it in the wrong place!!
Ed
k I'll make the holding jig and finish the pickup cover plate
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
made this wooden jig to hold the pickup where it should be

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fits like this. a section of the wood was cut away for Ed to access welding the bracket area more easily

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thought huh the brackets slightly off? didn't look like that on the endoscope with the sump on the engine. either the jig is off or the baffle is off and will need modifying :/

fitted the sump back onto the engine, recheck with endoscope and sure enough, the bracket clears it :/

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but then i noticed the pickup tube was actually fouling on the top of the baffle. the stock baffle was actually 5mm lower than the new baffle plus it had this 4mm dimple groove to clear the pickup pipe.
no wonder fitting the new sump onto the engine or jig was abit tricky.

the wooden jig has abit more flex so when the pickup tube was touching the baffle, it pushes the bracket off centre

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you can see where the pickup has been rubbing on the top of the baffle

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at first i thought about trying to hammer the dimple groove into the top plate but the casing is all riveted up and with no way of supporting the surrounding metal during hammering I'll just be deforming the entire unit and make things worse.

so instead I'll cut this groove out of the case to clear the pickup and the cover plate that'll be welded onto the pickup will seal against the exposed gap

DSC06799.JPG


good thing i made this jig or else i wouldn't have known about this issue
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
dremeled the slot

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was still slightly touching so trimed more off

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now sits nicely in place

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made the pickup cover template with paper first, then card

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made the metal cover

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with abit of filing it fits like this

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how it sits relative to the engine

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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
sanded and degreased the sump

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sanded this top lip for Ed's ground clamp

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pickup cleaned

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Ed would you also be able to TIG this drain plug onto the sump? have always had a slight leak out this bit an would be better if it was finally fused onto the sump.
keeping the hex sides vertical like this so my spanner can access it

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I'll need to cut this inside threaded end off won't I? else I won't be able to take the baffle out.

ah just noticed there's a pop rivet right under this drain plug so in order to allow the rivet gun to access it, I'll need to trim the drain plug as far back as possible.

Ed if i leave maybe 1mm sticking out to centre it on the hole, are you able to weld it flush?

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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
cut the drain plug, leaving 1-2mm out to centre it

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the top of the baffle must be a 120mm from the top of the sump flat n level, so i marked the position of the support bracket incase it was nudged

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Ed if you have any long bodypanel clamps to squeeze the bracket tight against the sump wall before plug welding it in place then thats gr8.
incase you don't, i made this wedge beam to shuv the bracket plates up against the sump. tis only soft Alu scrap unfortunately so the tapered edge will be gouged even time its used but a light file will smooth it out for the next use.

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the sump is secured n ready

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packaged

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the box is 50.5x33.5x25cm so slightly larger than the 50x30x30 limit on Collect+ but hope its alright?
I'll ring em to check tomorrow. if not, maybe i could just try bash the box abit narrower, ace ventura style lol

forgot to include the instructions once its taped up Ed so I'll write it up n PM it to u?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
hmm just to be safe, maybe I'll cut a section out the middle of the whole box n ducktape it back together to meet the 30cm width limit?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
really fed up with waiting for the damn rings from performance unlimited:rolleyes:
ordered em 3weeks ago and nothing. rang em last week and guy said yeah he should get em later that day. just rang em and no one answers. tis holding up progress on the engine
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
got email back that he'll check with JE and has no idea why its not arrived:rolleyes:

anyway, I fancied testing the torque wrench n see how far off it is.
removed the dumbell weights i had in the passenger well (prob won't need em anymore cos an 80kg passenger would usually be sitting there)
weighed them on several electronic scales reading bout 29.2kg
the weight of the wrench body itself would also be exerting its own torque on the mechanism so holding the head and weighing the headle end reads 0.6kg
so the total force is bout 29.8kg

clamp the wrench bit on a vice. check the handles level. set the torque level. hang the weights with string at various distance from the pivot along the wrench till it clicks and measure the distance for that setting.

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after the initial few readings i calculated the actual torque readings and plotted how far off the readings were from the torque setting



looks like the initial 28-38Nm settings clicks abit higher but the tolerances improve exponentially as the settings get higher and the spring gets stiffer.
will need to do more readings at the higher end
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
hmm i was just reading on some engine building tips at circletrack.com as I do in me spare time and i read in this article that some pro builders don't oil the pistons, bores and new rings with normal heavy oil cos it could prolong the break-in, instead they use thin oil like wd40.o_O

saying the new rings begin to break-in from the moment it starts to slide along the bore, even when hand cranking.

3rd paragraph from the bottom
http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/ctrp_0412_race_engine_building/piston_rings.html

I've always been oiling my pistons, bores n rings with the thick oil that it'll break-in with, could that have been a bad move?
 

frank

Club Member
the bore is gonna get splashed with engine oil as soon as it fires up anyway eh paul, i use engine oil on a paintbrush personally :)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
the bore is gonna get splashed with engine oil as soon as it fires up anyway eh paul, i use engine oil on a paintbrush personally :)
i was just gonna say that a milisec ago. when i'm priming the oil system before starting, the crank would've splashed oil all up the bore under the piston anyway.

when fitting pistons, i squirt the mineral oil with a syringe along the rings and skirt and spread it around the piston sides with me finger
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
oh for cryin out
perf unlimited emailed saying JE got their email order but didn't get processed!:mad::mad: they didn't have any in stock (seems an all too common excuse):rolleyes: and is trying to special order with perf unlimiteds friday shipment.
didn't even notify me the Customero_O

gr8 customer service, not!

christ if I have to wait for JE to dispatch the rings to Perf Unl on friday, take few days for them to receive and then redeliver to my addr, I may as well just cancel and order straight from JE to be shipped NOW for extra few quid plus extra tax etc. this is silly
 
when we've built grasstrack engines we always gave a little squirt with engine oil never heard of wd not sure how much better it would be
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
k found that perf unl receives their large shipments from JE on fridays so to test my patience I'll have to wait till next week to maybe get it delivered
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
further tested the torque wrench and this was the result

torque.jpg


the spring rate is well outa sync, only accurate when the line crosses round 46-47Nm
only run the test upto 60Nm, 25% of the torque capacity so god knows how seriously far off the settings are at the higher end.

so time for new wrench i guess. dunno whether to go for the same £23 cheapo clarke wrench or the fancy pantsy £120 digital ones with angle measuring gyros?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
isnt all this testing very inaccurate? surely further you hang the weight from the wrench head less weight is needed
i'm not calibrating the wrench, this is only a rough test to determine the condition of the tools spring.
i've taken into account the weight of the control weights and angular force of the torque wrench and from the looks of the result, it is prob more accurate than the wrench itself now :p
for more accuracy I'd prob also use a more accurate weighing scale cos my digital one only reads +/- 0.1kg

we know torque = force x distance.
yes the further the distance, the less weight/force required to achive the same torque and make it click but thats not the point.

the point of the test is to roughly measure & calculate what the real torque is for each torque setting of the tool, hence you can plot & visualize the accuracy behavior of the tool throughout its setting parameters

the force/weights in this test is measured and is a static known constant.
we set and lock the tool setting to a value we're testing against.

slide the weight along the horizontal handle until the mechanism just about triggers. altering the position of the exerted angular force by sliding it along the beam provides much more accurate and convenient control of one of the variables (Distance) in the torque equation than say adding vague blocks of weights (Force)

measure the distance from the pivot centre to the string hanging the weights.
when you multiply distance from pivot with the known constant weight force you get the torque reading that triggered the click.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
just for the crack, I think I'll try mess round with the allen adjustment screw in the wrench n see how that affects the torque graph
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
also for a more accurate known weight, and to test the accuracy of the scales, i might just use water in a lightweight bottle/bag.
found that 1L water = 1kg
 

Antony

Ex. Club Member
you could allways use another torque wrench that you know to be in spec and attatch the two together.... check which one goes first.. lol
 
why not just use 1l of water on the middle of the grip on the handle and set the screw to like 98 that should be right shouldnt it ? f=mass x perpendicular displacment but you know the force is the weight which is 9.81 x g ahh just realised where i have gone wrong possibly so its either that or set the force at the displament
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
ok a poured exactly 1L water in a bottle and another 2L in another bottle and grabbed afew bags of 1kg flour n sugar in the kitchen.

placed the scales on a perfectly flat sheet of glass cos flatness affects their accuracy.
i found that one digital scale only increments at 0.2kg at a time so won't use that.
the other 200kg digital scale, which were used to corner balance the coilovers, increments in 0.1kg, has a lower reading limit of 2kg and after weighing various combo's of flour & bottles its seems quite accurate.

before adjusting the wrench allen screw i thought it was abit stiff so i thought heck, lets clean up the mechanism after several years. like any machinery, then cleaner it is the more efficient n accurate it'll operate.

so this is the insides of a sprung torque wrench

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the roller pin end of the mechanism was full of old gunked caked brown grease, no wonder it causes the vague inconsistant results of the graph

mechanisms all shiny clean

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regreased

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reassembled.

i position the weights to where it'd produce 28Nm, set the wrench to 28Nm and adjust the allen screw till it just clicks at that distance.

after the first series of readings (purple) the cleaned mechanism calibrated to match at 28Nm produced a much steeper line

recalibrated to match at a higher 40Nm to see if that flattens the curve (yellow) but nope its just as steep after cleaning the mechanism

torque 2.jpg


seems that the bad habit of storing the wrench forgetting to unload the spring has permenantly wrecked its springrate
woops

think its time to order that new digital wrench
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
damn think i just missed an oppurtunity to buy cheap pair of r888 on ebay tday.
saw pair of r888 with a good 4-5mm left for £148 buy it now delivered and just sold like hot cakes
damn

there's always another
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
some measurements i took of the pickup

lower engine measurement.jpg


i originally thought i could attach the crank scraper to the bottom of the block but there's not wnough space or anywhere to bolt to

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same at the front

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so the only option is to attach it to the front of the crank girdle cage

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the windage tray will be bolted underneath the crank cage

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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
just a thought bout the windage tray.
its main purpose is to allow oil to drain down through the louvres away from the crank yet tries to prevent the surface pool of oil below the pan from sloshing upwards towards the spinning crank.
using louvres there's still a chance that during long high-g turns, the pool of oil will seep past them and contact the crank.

so instead of static open louvres, what if i use the horizontal hinged gates?
in this case rather than using em to keep oil within a chamber around the pickup, its used to keep the oil away from the crank above.

normally the gates are opened slightly to allow oil to drain down freely.
whenever any section of the gated windage tray experiences a reverse flow, such as when the oil sloshes to one side during turns, those individual gates shut to prevent the oil from seeping past and interfering with the crank. the rest of the gates on the opposite side remains open and allows oil to continue flowing past down into the sump.

drawing a diagram n designing the tray now
 

frank

Club Member
the crank does,nt actually dip into the oil tho eh paul, the only source of spray is what,s flung from the journals as the oil seeps out of their sides surely ?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
with 3.5L of oil the level is just touching the bottom of the girdle cage.
when the engines running there's prob 2-2.5L in the pan?
when taking a very high g right turn, the remaining uncontrolled pool of oil shoots up the ramp profile of the sump to the higher LH section which is closer to cyl#4 and could potentially touch the crank which is bad. which is what the windage tray hopefully prevents.

yea the oil seeps out the journal gaps n splash everywhere but the separate crank scraper is to scrape excess oil off the crank so that it doesn't have to Drag that excess film round for the during each revolution, reducing abit of drag.
the scraper and the girdle cage also interrupts the cyclone effect from the spinning crank, preventing more oil from being whipped up towards the crank.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
my new Sealey stw306 torque wrench arrived:)

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testing the angle mode and torque mode

 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
measured & modeled the crank girdle
girdle.jpg


to bolt the windage tray flat against the bottom of the girdle I'll prob need to grind off these emboss stampings

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if the crank scraper was mounted at the front of the girdle it'll have to be profiled to miss the counterweight

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the bigend

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and then the bigend nut

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but to secure the flailing ends of the scraper to the girdle, there's no flat surface to bolt onto, plus the girdle bolts pass through these beams so i can't drill into them anyway

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ideally the scraper would've been fitted at the bottom rear of the block here. but there's nowhere to secure the plate onto and it blocks one of the oil return ports from the head in the middle

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that rear scraper would've been profiled to clear the counterweight

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and the bigend

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and then i thought what about scraping from the bottom of the girdle cage?
the vertical sides of the main bearing caps that the crank spins past already scrapes off excess oil from the sides of the crank.

if I fit the scraper here at the bottom opening, it'll scrape the remaining oil off and drains straight down into the sump.
the scraper lip would become part of the windage tray bolted to the girdle so it won't flap about

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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
when i position the new sump with the crank assembly its like this. certainly wanna prevent the oil pool sloshing to the LH up the slope of the sump.

there's no room below the windage tray for any moving gates so will just use static louvres
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
I am fcking pissed off perf unlimited!!!!! :mad: fckin idiot says their next shipping from JE was on friday/monday and then delivered next day. its tuesday, no email replay, had to call by 20rings before anyone answers and they haven't received any shipping this week W.T.F! guy's gonna get dave to chase it up when he's back n email or call me. I am not happy at all. this is a joke! this is the absolute borderline. if i don't get any indication that they've got it in by tomorrow I'm gonna cancel the friggin order and order it feckin direct from JE and suck up the cost n suck up waiting another few days being sent via ups express direct to my door
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
well wooptydoo :mad:

dave called me to say nope the rings weren't in the shipping they just received. he emailed JE and their excuse is they don't usually keep that model in stock and won't have any till say friday. theres nothing dave could do bout it.

um i'm sorry but over 30 fcking days for a fcking piston ring is not acceptable. trading standards say ordes must be delivered within 30days and friday would be the last day.
told him to cancel the fcking order.
now i gotta ring JE tonight n order it the long n expensive way:oops:
 

skymera

Brutal Honesty
well wooptydoo :mad:

dave called me to say nope the rings weren't in the shipping they just received. he emailed JE and their excuse is they don't usually keep that model in stock and won't have any till say friday. theres nothing dave could do bout it.

um i'm sorry but over 30 fcking days for a fcking piston ring is not acceptable. trading standards say ordes must be delivered within 30days and friday would be the last day.
told him to cancel the fcking order.
now i gotta ring JE tonight n order it the long n expensive way:oops:
An entire month and still nothing!?
That's beyond a joke.

How much more expensive? :O
 
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