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PollyMobiles Rebuild

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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
gonna reorientate it with a diamond chamber layout rather than square chamber to prevent oil on one side of the runners from easily sloshing over to the runners on the opposite side during directional changes.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
looking into Windage trays for the crankcase i figured i could make one from a louvre vent panel

louvre.jpg


hmm might not work.
looking at all the pic of windage trays, the main bearing caps are usually small n individual which allows the tray to be located right underneath the spinning crank.

mdmp_1011_06_o+ford_boss_302_engine_build+moroso_windage_tray.jpg


but on the micra engine, the main bearing caps are all casted together in this massively overengineered main bearing cage surrounding the crank (prob to save some factory labour and further strengthen the casing) so a windage tray won't work
(unless the engine is re-engineered with the main bearing caps cut into seperate pieces? fancy a try frank?:p)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
this is the redesigned baffle with a diagonal chamber

1.jpg


the front vertical baffle runs diagonally in order to miss the dipstick while still seperating the front left/right outer runner cells

3.jpg


need to mockup a template in card, then in plastic to test its works before making it in steel
 
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frank

Club Member
(unless the engine is re-engineered with the main bearing caps cut into seperate pieces? fancy a try frank?:p)
no thanks, that girdle design is integral to the strength of the block eh paul :)
and i think you just need a perforated drum around the pickup pipe personally (just to slow the oil slosh down)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
no thanks, that girdle design is integral to the strength of the block eh paul :)
and i think you just need a perforated drum around the pickup pipe personally (just to slow the oil slosh down)
aye i'll leave the crankcage alone for now and prob drill summore oil drain holes at the bottom.
until the day i find this forged engine still hasn't worked and I feel little bit more wreckless n adventurous n cut apart the lower cage up for fun lol.

a sieve drum round the pickup might not hold enough oil during some very long right handers that i'll be flying round, especially at the ring, and the sieve would be causing a continuous restriction which is the last thing the pump needs when running near max revs
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
made a mockup of the chamber and it'll be a nightmare to fit it against the badly corregated battered sump shape to get any sealing

DSC06653.JPG


very close to the drain plug

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the sump inclines earlier than i thought and had to trim the corner of the chamber by this much. guess the doors could be shifted over abit but with the lack of seal at the bottom it's pointless

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made the top plate

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test fit

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ok the vertical trapdoor chamber layout isn't easy to fit and won't work with this sump so it's back to the original horizontal trapdoor idea.

I cut two flaps on the left & right sides

DSC06660.JPG


added vertical baffle/trapdoor stopper

DSC06661.JPG
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with this idea, the flap openings are reversed and some louvres above help funnel the returning oil into the chamber during directional changes.

when straight & level, both flaps are open and oil can return into the chamber

baffle layout 2 level.jpg


when turning left:
*the RH flap shuts as the oil inside tries to escape, keeping most of the oil inside contained
*oil from the LH would be collected by the LH louvre and guided down past the open LH flap to fill the chamber
*the remaining oil above the baffle plate gathers around the RH flap/louvre ready to be collected when the car changes direction

baffle layout 2 left.jpg


when turning from left to right:
*the LF flap shuts as the oil inside tries to escape, keeping most of the oil inside contained
*oil that was gathered from the RH would be collected by the RH louvre and guided down past the open RH flap to fill the chamber
*the remaining oil above the baffle plate gathers around the LH flap/louvre ready to be collected when the car changes direction

baffle layout 2 right.jpg
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
rather than a windage tray I may just make a crank scraper positioned either horizontal under the back of the block or vertical on the front of the crank girdle, looks easy enough to make:cool:

scraper.jpg
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
just noticed that this short flange on the upper back of the pan tries to seal against the crank girdle and forms a small splashscreen or baffle directing the oil splash back down the sump rather than up the crankcase.

DSC06633 copy.jpg


will be replaced with a proper scraper
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
here's a helpful page about scrapers n widage trays
http://www.crank-scrapers.com/What is a crank-scraper.html

some scrapers are made from steel (requires fine grinding till it clears) or teflon (just needs trimming till its barely touching the parts and the spinning crank will then contact & trim the last few thou and the soft teflon wont scratch the crank).

may go the teflon route

teflon.jpg
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
engine and cranks been machined but told they need 0.25mm oversized main and big end bearings, which they'd need to order oversea and take few weeks and so said I should check if my contacts have em in stock.

rang nissan and their system quoted £50 per car, dunno if thats per set (main & bigend = £100) or per pair Shell! (4 mains & 4 bigends = £400!!) lmao

phoned matt humphris bout the shells and he'll ring me back with quote
...yikes its quoted £165 for a full set of main, bigend & thrust bearings!:eek:
thats painful. oh why did i decide to get the crank machined?o_O
shoulda just left it.

the cost of fitting this forged engines spiralling skyhigh :/

meanwhile i'm gonna order a dial bore gauge and micrometer to measure bores n bearings myself
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280885589575
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370487227528
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
thought of a new baffle design that's simpler and with the hinge gates laid vertical so they'll work properly. to be modelled n updated later tonight
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
this is the new baffle design

trapdoor7 1.jpg
trapdoor7 2.jpg


the bottom plate links & strengthens the bottom of the ported sideplates together while the plates that come up the front/back connected to the top baffle stiffen the bottom end from skewing and also baffles the forward/backward motion.

trapdoor7 3.jpg


the edge of the ported sideplates seals the baffle chamber while the verge cavity on the outside of the sides serves to hold the oil pool and feed through an open port when cornering

4.jpg


when straight & level, oil can fill the chamber from both gates

baffle 7 level.jpg


when turning left

baffle 7 left.jpg


turning right

baffle 7 right.jpg
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
well this is just brill, the machinist says their normal supplier has stopped doing that 0.25mm shell and their guys looking around for it, this is all after the cranks grinded ffs :rolleyes:

only matt has quoted £165

this is not good
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
was thinking of getting my torque recalibrated but machinists can't do it and suggested calling my distributor, the machine mart repair/service centre wasn't picking up.
seems a shame to waste an existing wrench but at £30 i may as well just buy another clarke wrench to be sure the torques correct?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
ok some better news
got another call from a local engine recon place Erimus Engines and the guy can get the +0.25mm cg13de main shells £29.69, bigends £22.64 and thrustbearings £10 + vat all for tomorrow so overall tis bout £86.80 delivered (but i'll be collecting directly so will prob be £75):) much better price

when i get the new rings I'll also give em to machinist to properly file n gap
 
not sure bout that. there's risk of restricted flow at high revs especially when clogged with debris & sludge and risk of it breaking up and damaging the oil system
if its good for racing car or aircraft petrol tank cant see why id wouldn't work here. just a suggestion. seem like a lot of hassle
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
if its good for racing car or aircraft petrol tank cant see why id wouldn't work here. just a suggestion. seem like a lot of hassle
hmm i'll look into it, just don't trust it yet and i don't plan on having to take the sump off to replace the sump foam every few weeks like a racing team.

looking at this page it seems that any foam exposed to heat and oil long enough would harden n break up n clog the oil system which is not good.

http://www.mycaterham.com/66828/120916.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

for fuel systems tis fine, I may consider it for the fueltank cos alot of fuel will slosh all over the place other than the fuel pickup when fuels low.
 

frank

Club Member
was thinking of getting my torque recalibrated but machinists can't do it and suggested calling my distributor, the machine mart repair/service centre wasn't picking up.
seems a shame to waste an existing wrench but at £30 i may as well just buy another clarke wrench to be sure the torques correct?
test the calibration yourelf paul :) it should show 50lb/ft when it lifts a 50lb weight with the leverage of 1 ft eh (or 25lb @ 6 inch etc)
and i hope you are getting -25 shells, +25 ones will be a bit of a pi##-fit :)
 
hmm i'll look into it, just don't trust it yet and i don't plan on having to take the sump off to replace the sump foam every few weeks like a racing team.

looking at this page it seems that any foam exposed to heat and oil long enough would harden n break up n clog the oil system which is not good.

http://www.mycaterham.com/66828/120916.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

for fuel systems tis fine, I may consider it for the fueltank cos alot of fuel will slosh all over the place other than the fuel pickup when fuels low.
could probably use wire wool of some sort. id personally use swirl pot for the fuel though

good luck
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
test the calibration yourelf paul :) it should show 50lb/ft when it lifts a 50lb weight with the leverage of 1 ft eh (or 25lb @ 6 inch etc)
and i hope you are getting -25 shells, +25 ones will be a bit of a pi##-fit :)
yea i saw a webpage bout how u diy calibrate ur wrench with some mathes and weights.
gotta take into account the weight of the wrench itself.
i think there's a grubscrew hole in the middle of the wrench where u can adjust the spring?
i'll test it throughout its entire range, make sure the spring still reads linear and not degraded after numerous bad habits of storing it left at high settings after say doing the driveshafts and using it to undo stuck driveshaft nuts:oops:

i told the guy the stock cranks been grinded down so the shells need to be thicker than std by 0.25mm, i hope thats what he understood.
can you get thinner than std shells to accomodate larger than std journals? i'd thought any stock crank from factory would be upto or below std dia spec? and if machined it'd be smaller than std so you'd normally get thicker shells?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
could probably use wire wool of some sort. id personally use swirl pot for the fuel though

good luck
i'll stick to basic solid baffle plates, don't fancy having metal shards floating about n sucked up the pickup after few months.

i'm sticking to stock fueltank
 

frank

Club Member
a torque wrench is only accurate relative to the friction in the thread anyway eh paul, i bet you can get upto 50% discrepency in readings between a dry or threadlocked and an oiled thread.
like the old story i heard about the rolls royce aero engines made in usa in ww2, where they apparently chromed the headbolts or nuts and then stripped loads threads lol
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
a torque wrench is only accurate relative to the friction in the thread anyway eh paul, i bet you can get upto 50% discrepency in readings between a dry or threadlocked and an oiled thread.
like the old story i heard about the rolls royce aero engines made in usa in ww2, where they apparently chromed the headbolts or nuts and then stripped loads threads lol
indeed
i find that every headbolt behaves uniquely when i torque them up, even when I've cleaned, retapped, flushed thread with carb cleaner, dried and reoiled the bolt threads with same amount of 10w40, plus the block threads were given the same treatment.
and yet some bolts torqued up smoothly and some were creeky n frictional which didn't provide confidence halfway through the torqueing sequence and was worried that if i back out halfway through the final torque sequence it'd mess up the quality of the gasket seal.

while torqueing and sensing the amount of force required my gut feeling sometimes tells me i might be overtightening more than normal as i sense the force seems to just peak over the crest (e.g. just before it gets loose as the thread material weakens before stripping) even though the wrench didn't click (like as if the ratchet teeth wasn't fully seated or the mechanisms slightly stuck).
in that case i back off slightly, then rewind the ratchet by one teeth and try again till it clicks when it feels right.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
tday the bore gauge arrived :)

DSC06670.JPG
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the interchangable rear pin has a ball-point that centers that side while the other end has the sliding pin which measures the bore

DSC06675.JPG


this sprung loaded sliding pair of rollers and the single ball-point nib wedges the tool against the sidewalls which centres it

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also got the 50-75mm micrometer. essential tool used as the setting up reference for the bore gauge

DSC06668.JPG
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coolant pipe o-ring

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timing cover oil o-ring

DSC06682.JPG
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genuine HG

DSC06685.JPG


Aluminium piano hinge

DSC06669.JPG
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
made the cardboard mockup

DSC06687.JPG
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fits nicely in the sump.
the securing brackets will be welded onto the sump and then the baffle is screwed onto the brackets so that its removable to be cleaned whenever the sumps next removed.

DSC06690.JPG


LH gate

DSC06691.JPG


RH gate

DSC06692.JPG


trimmed and loosened the hinge till they flap around freely

DSC06693.JPG


they're split in 2 to work independantly when acceleration and braking and the oil sloshes forwards or backwards

DSC06694.JPG


the flap stops against this edge so it doesn't open too far and get stuck

DSC06695.JPG


may need to allow more opening cos the gap between the bottom of the flaps and base plate is too shallow when fully open

DSC06696.JPG
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
got the bearings
0.25mm mains £29.69
0.25mm bigends £22.64
stock thrustbearing £10
importing from abroad £10
vat £14.47
=£86.80

this is the thrust bearing

DSC06698.JPG
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0.25mm bigends

DSC06700.JPG

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mains

DSC06703.JPG
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machinist lady was abit quizzed that it says MA10 cos she was having lota trouble specifying to suppliers that it must be for a CG engine hence the difficulty in finding.

do the MA10 & CG13/CG10 share the same bearings?
...according to global technologies int website they use the same parts
http://www.gtiuk.co.uk/parts_details.php?engineID=769

also got manifold gasket. i prefer these perforated metal types cos they tend to be more durable

DSC06707.JPG
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
made the support bracket

DSC06708.JPG
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positioned in sump

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test fit the sump and it seems the baffle chambers too far right by 1cm

DSC06712.JPG
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the LH gates way too close to the pickup

DSC06718.JPG


the pickup bracket fouling the top

DSC06716.JPG


tweak the model n retest
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
remodelled with corrected measurements

trapdoor 7b 1.jpg


i moved the LH panel further away from the pickup so the hinge clears it. by doing so, if the port was still at the bottom it'd be too close to where the sump starts to incline upwards and restricts flow. so the port is positioned at the top of the LH panel where it'll be in a clearer path of the oil sloshing from the left of the pan over to the right, plus it allows the hinge swing unobstructed by the pickup

trapdoor 7b 2.jpg


the lower assembly meets the bottom right of the upper assembly (blue) at 1" away from the port, this allows the vertical sides of the lower assembly to clear the swinging arc of the RH hinge.
the petruding step on the RH of the vertical sides is level with the RH hinge pivot and serves to stop the hinge from swing up beyond 90deg.

the upper left of the lower assembly is 1" away from the LH port so it clears the LH hinge.
where the bottom left of the lower assembly meets the bottom left of the upper assembly is moved far left as possible away from the pickup.
this allows the hole at the bottom of the lower assembly to be directly underneath the pickup so its not obstructed n restricting.

the front support bracket welded to the sump that the whole baffle assembly will be bolted onto has a notch cut in the middle to clear the dipstick

trapdoor 7b 3.jpg
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
made the mockup

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positioned the support brackets

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fitted

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LH port

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RH port

DSC06729.JPG


lets test fit n see if it clears the pickup this time
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Are you sure those hinges are light enough for the oil to push open? Don't want to end up starving the pump eh.
yep

they're alu plus i pryed the pivot apart slightly looser so it will now simply swing about freely, keeps pointing down towards gravity at all angles
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
test fitted and its almost spot on.

here at the pickup hole its centered

DSC06730.JPG


the pickup support bracket at the back is centered to the cutout slot

at the back of the pickup the bracket is just resting on the edge
DSC06733.JPG


trimmed it back and it nows clears

DSC06735.JPG


dipstick hole needs shifting over slightly

DSC06736.JPG


repeat model tweaking and make another piece :rolleyes: trial & error eh
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
tweaked mockup. added a folded edge in the middle to stiffen the opening

DSC06737.JPG
DSC06738.JPG
DSC06739.JPG


the pickup bracket now clearing the hole

DSC06740.JPG
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dipstick hole diameter is reduced to minimise leaking during cornering and is now located perfectly

DSC06744.JPG


positioning the templates on the sheet steel

DSC06746.JPG
 
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Good stuff:) the design is excellent, was just worried anout the hinges. Good stuff paul! Looking forward to deeing it all welded up:)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
thx for the compliment ed ;)
i'll water test it again, possibly with a fishtank water pump to simulate the flow, once the support brackets welded to the sump and exposed holes are patched up.

u guys know if the holes this small could be filled up on their own by simply welding it up from the edge inwards or maybe place a piece of Alu or copper behind it as a barrier guide and weld inwards? or would i have to weld a steel plate to the holes? need to experiment

think i'll just pop rivet the baffle assembly together then pop rivet it to the support brackets. when i need to remove it for cleaning i just drill out the rivets.

where the plate on the oil pickup seals against the hole in the middle of the baffle is critical otherwise all this hinge design is pointless cos oil would simply leak out the top hole, so positioning the plate must be accurate. will need my local welder to tig/mig it on without damaging the pickup pipe.

need to go get summore sheet metal for the pickup plate, crank scraper and a louvre vent for the windage tray
 

Stani1029

Club Member
Is it all going to be worth the hassle? And wont you test it with oil to ensure all the doors will work as you expect them too....
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
yes course it'll be worth it making this baffle, already gone this far and no turning back. considering the high stresses it'll be put under, especially with semi slicks, a turbo and this new engine, improving any oil control is essential to prevent all that hard work grenading itself halfway through a corner.

testing with water is just to confirm the fluid is controlled as expected. the principle of the gated baffle works well in motorsport.
testing with oil at ambient temp will be inaccurate cos the cold oil will be too thick and its incredibly messy (neighbours wont be happy :p)
at operating temp the hot oil is thinner so will flow through an open gate with ease. cos its slightly thicker than water it'll be more effective for the gate to shut and seal against when the flow reverses during cornering.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
marked out the template

DSC06747.JPG


drilling out the holes. the hole cutter obviously not meant for metal but taking it slowly with some wd40 it makes nice clean round cuts. now cutting the edges with a dremel

DSC06748.JPG
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
upper panel is cut

DSC06751.JPG


bent into shape

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cut off the stiffening lip cos the metal was rigid enough and trying to bend the edge would be too much work and could warp the flatness of the panel that the hinge seals against

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all riveted up :)

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took out the thick piano hinge pin cos it could pop out and could bind the hinge so replaced with a thin piece of wire

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trimmed the inner edge of the gate so they dont touch

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taped up the sump holes for a quick water test

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baffle slots in nice n snug so won't bother making the support bracket yet for this test

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covered up the pickup hole with a clear lid to see whats happening inside

DSC06767.JPG
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
testing the hing moves freely


filled with 3.5L water and sloshed it around.


looking through the porthole it seems to remain fully submerged during short sudden lateral sloshes.
its only when i tilt it at extreme angles for long periods at 0:27 (simulate say 1/2G lateral load for a very long corner) that it leaks out but at a much reduced rate than say the stock baffle, mostly through the gap between the vertical baffle & sump wall but bear in mind its not anchored down onto its support bracket yet so it's floating up away from the sump abit to allow this leakage. will retest once the brackets fitted to hold it down, plus I'll be sealing the baffle to the sump wall with PU sealant so fluid def won't leak past them gaps easy

cut n bent the support bracket

DSC06768.JPG


figured i could just open the vice jaw 10mm and notch the V shape with the end of my hammer quite easily

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first one done

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baffle painted in high temp black to help slow corrosion after the water test

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finish the other bracket later on and then we could get welding.

still alota work to finish the pickup cover, crank scraper & windage tray
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
accessing the rivets so close to the sump wall will be difficult with the bulky rivet gun

DSC06773.JPG


so had to trim it down so it can reach down

DSC06774.JPG


bracket riveted to baffle and in place. just needs welding to the sump tomorrow

DSC06777.JPG
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
tried to plug weld hundreds of holes and its just near impoossible to get a thorough good penetrating fill with this stick weld, its sooooo frustrating:mad:
tried welding from the outside in and just clumps all to one side.
tried quickly weld round the hole once, let it cool briefly and try again but the slag simply fills the hole and leaves voids afterwards.
tried placing an Alu rod underneath, start the molton pool in the middle then swirl out to the edges, again the molton either doesn't join to the edges with poor penetration, or the whole pool joins at one end only (the brightest one-sided glow) and burns a hole off the other end

DSC06778.JPG


tried plug welding the old baffle onto the sheet steel with poor penetration and just breaks away

DSC06779.JPG


at the very lowest amps the pool is stable n more controllable but has poor penetration. if i just keep on building the pool, the slag would just fill the remaining holes and when the molton pool mass get hot enough to join the edge, it just gathers at one-side n gets hotter/bigger, leaving alot more grinding work. the slag filled holes leave a void when chipped away and needs yet more welding.

at low amps rated for bout 1-1.5mm sheet, it sparks more violent and the hotter pool just burns through

so crap at any welding other than butt welding which was barely do-able.

i think i'll need to pay me local welder to weld it all up proper:rolleyes:
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
blimey he quoted me £30 for couple of welds taking bout a weeko_O

for that much i could get a massive sheet of steel to practice plug welding hundreds of times.

well, guess I'll have to do it myself. ordered summore 1.6mm stick for tenner
 
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