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PollyMobiles Rebuild

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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
i doubt if the rings will be worn paul, and i guess that if the honing is too deep/coarse it holds too thick a film of oil, (hence the good compression)
and i think the oil "control" rings should scrape about 95% of the oil off and leave a very thin film for ringseal and lubrication, but these 3 piece steel rings are very weak and i dont think they like a honed surface (baguete did,nt glazebust his at all iirc, and had no problems i believe)
but the old 1 piece oilrings were proper scrapers (very springy cast iron)
and i guess the thicker oil does,nt splash up under the bores as much ?
how ya think this could be resolved, maybe keep engine in car, take head & pistons out, rehone with me 3-leg honer and reassemble to bed in gently? then if it still doesn't work i swap engines.
 

frank

Club Member
how ya think this could be resolved, maybe keep engine in car, take head & pistons out, rehone with me 3-leg honer and reassemble to bed in gently? then if it still doesn't work i swap engines.
i think you will need to inspect the bores really paul, or take the block to someone for advice.
i can remember checking all the ring gaps with feeler gauges, and i think we had to file the ends to achieve the correct gaps (ed ?) so you will be able to check the rings for any wear.
and if the bores still look like they have just been honed, then the rings are not going to bed in properly for 10,s of thousands of miles imo fwn
i would fit the other engine personally, and keep the boost below 10psi (9.5:1 C/R is still pretty low nowadays)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
alright swap engine prob the week after. ed would prob cater for the 10psi on stock compression wouldn't he during the remap? but yea keep off boost till then
 

frank

Club Member
alright swap engine prob the week after. ed would prob cater for the 10psi on stock compression wouldn't he during the remap? but yea keep off boost till then
i would guess the map will be very similar paul, maybe a bit less ign advance ?
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
let ed do it properly on the dyno just to be sure. dont want it detonating during a trackday.

just took her into garage for leakdown test. anyone know how much they roughly cost?
 
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OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
bah it was £48:doh: equal to if i was hiring a crane

ok i pickup invoice tomorrow but i think the leakdown results were 95%, 97%, 95%, 94% which he said was very good. maybe excess oil from the walls could affect the result?

so i'm abit brain faded here. the valve seals are dry, no external leaks, 11bar dry compression and 12bar wet compression, good leakdown test and plugs are dusty white. where the heck could the oil be going?

the drain plugs slightly leakin so he tightened that up, maybe i should replace the washer

and i forgot to fit the PAS pumps lower bolts which prob explains that annoying a-pillar rattle i couldn't locate, oops

and the ign barrel switch is sticking during cranking so have to back off the key abit otherwise it turns off
 

Antony

Ex. Club Member
right,
i have spoken to my dad and we have both looked through your entire blog.
my dad works for VOSA and has over 30 years engineering experience with diagnosing engine problems...

his thoughts are.

if the engine isnt burning the oil off through the inlet manifold, or through the valve stem seals, and there is no sign of an external leak... the only way it could burn off that much oil is if the oil is being pushed up past the piston rings.

he says that, because it gets worse over 3000rpm and with fully synthetic oil, and that you have fitted new pistons and rings, and have had it over bored/ honed that either the piston rings are the wrong size for the ring groves in the pistons, (so they are moving up and down and allowing oil to pass them) or the re-bore/hone was done beyond the specs given and that the rings arent sealing correctly..

sorry to be the bearer of bad news..:down:
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
thanks so much antony & dad for ur valuable verdict and yea i too believe its the rings/honing thats making the piston top half damp and fouling the plugs.

once swapped i'll crack it open n check the condition of walls, rings and signs of excess piston blowby

rereading bout the wrong ring size, you meant the groove clearance may be too large? which would also make sense in that the oil works its way past the rings every time the piston changes direction and yet shows good leakdown pressure. i'll check the groove gap also upon inspection
 

Antony

Ex. Club Member
thats quite allright.... had my dads thinking head on for about twenty minutes though..lol:laugh:

yeah, basicaly the rings are too thin a guage of steel for the groves in the pistons so you could be inadvertently making yourself an oil pump inside the engine...
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
oil still dropping a tiny bit at a time during normal motorway driving and here's pics of the pistons. i think the seepage is getting worse cos the crusty carbon centre is slowly getting wetter and flushed/cleaned away by the excess oil

DSC04765.JPG
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DSC04768.JPG
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
yea seems tis getting worse looking back.
(1st pic is the initial few miles of break-in. 2nd pic is after 500miles break-in. 3rd pic is tday at prob over 2000miles)

cyl1
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cyl2
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cyl3
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cyl4
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DSC04768.JPG
 
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Low Rider

Poindexter
Founding Member
Moderator
Club Member
I don't buy it either. Those rings will have been specifically supplied for the pistons as a kit. It's impossible to be entirely specific without stripping the engine down. I would hazard an initial educated guess as Frank and say the oil control problem is likely to be a honing issue. Whatever is going on there isn't much oil control going on, that is obvious! I think Frank has a point in that the cylinder walls could be holding too much oil.

Regardless of such speculation though, there IS a blatant problem which is not going to get better and thicker oils is only a solution to mask a clear mechanical issue. There are other possibilities but since compression and leak down figures both look good, I doubt one has bore irregularities etc.

I'd offer some assistance as I have access to some good engine builders but I live in Norway now, so am literally miles away.

Try not to get too disheartened polly, the engine can be reborn. I would swap out, let it sit a while and leave it for a while until you're perhaps ready to pick it up again. At least you have a stock engine which you know it sound :)
 

solarice

Ex. Club Member
Guess swapping it out is gonna be the easiest way in the long run. Will certainly make it simpler to investigate the engine further...without taking the car off the road.

I sure you could tweak the turbo and fuel map yourself to compensate for the stock engine. Fueling might even be able to be left alone -- it should only over fuel at worst. :)
 
Guess swapping it out is gonna be the easiest way in the long run. Will certainly make it simpler to investigate the engine further...without taking the car off the road.

I sure you could tweak the turbo and fuel map yourself to compensate for the stock engine. Fueling might even be able to be left alone -- it should only over fuel at worst. :)
Second that. Just retard it some:)
 

Ed

Fusion Motorsport
MSC Founder
Official MSC Trader
I have to admit after hearing of the oil consumption when you first came to me I didn't expect it to get any better with time - it never does. Also as we spoke of your pistons and plugs didn't look in great shape so I wouln't be entirely surprised if it related to that. Either way your going to have to take it to bits to have a look.
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
indeed ed.
once i fit the stock engine back could i:
a- use the original turbo map but just adjust the injector multiplier for the 370cc
b- retard the ign map of the latest turbo remap
c- remap it again properly & accurately on dyno

i think i'll try opt A first cos most of the turbo setup is unchanged other than bigger injectors so original map may work. dunno bout B cos i don't have a knock sensor or anything and could risk not retarding enough and detonating the stock pistons or retard too much and lose efficiency.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Founding Member
Moderator
Club Member
I would opt for 'C' but I am a stickler for getting things right first time.

Hope all goes well polly ;)
 

Ed

Fusion Motorsport
MSC Founder
Official MSC Trader
Polly if you want to DIY it then you need to get the right kit, however pulling a few deg timing from the whole map should be enough as your not running much boost.

Fuel wise the map should be fine as it is.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Cheers ed i'll try retard the whole ign map. What other kit ya suggest? Not sure i can plug any more devices into laptop cos both usb's are taken up by consult & wideband feed. Hang on, i could just get a usb hub eh.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
ok the ignition switch has been sticking badly now, tis annoying. so i removed the switch off the barrel. the tiny screw is at some inaccesible angle but eventually removed it. switch pops out

DSC04769.JPG
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opened the casing and the insides are gunked n dirty

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all taken apart. cleaned. contacts wirebrushed. re-oiled back together and tis working like new now

DSC04773.JPG
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
dont you just love it paul when its fixed with no cost at all :)

never seen one stick though(Y)
aye. thank god they're this easy to remove and not built into the barrel, saved me from goin to scrappy.
actually no, i just realised now how insecure the ign switch is to nick if there's no immobilisor, yikes :/

i think its just dirt in the grease preventing contact at a specific point

pretty simple n logical to assemble Will, taking pics help
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Just brought myself a clarke cfc1000 1ton crane off ebay for £85. Considering i spend the same amount hiring off HSS for a weekend it'll work out cheaper n more convenient over the next two engine changes i'll be making. Guy listed as cash in collect but paid via paypal accidentally. Phoned him bout addr and payment and he said naa tis ok, not worth the bother to cancel paypal exchange for extra fee or effort. He'll txt me his addr and i pickup tonight.
Gonna strip out seats n hope it'll fit in the car
 

martinb

Ex. Club Member
You get it in Paul, just lean the passenger seat all the way back and put rear seats flat and leave parcel shelf at home

I've been borrowing my boss's 2 tonne one and that went in a ka!

Plus will got his neighbours one in plus his 1.0 engine and tools!

Seems like the best idea mate

You could always sell it back on after if you don't need it?
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
You get it in Paul, just lean the passenger seat all the way back and put rear seats flat and leave parcel shelf at home

I've been borrowing my boss's 2 tonne one and that went in a ka!

Plus will got his neighbours one in plus his 1.0 engine and tools!

Seems like the best idea mate

You could always sell it back on after if you don't need it?
to get max space i'll be removing the passenger sport seat and both rear seat backing.

you got a 2ton crane into a Ka !? man that'd be tight

yea exactly, i buy it for a bargain £85 (worth £250?) use it for swapping the stock and then forged engine, then clean it up n sell on for profit probably :)
 
You get it in Paul, just lean the passenger seat all the way back and put rear seats flat and leave parcel shelf at home

I've been borrowing my boss's 2 tonne one and that went in a ka!

Plus will got his neighbours one in plus his 1.0 engine and tools!

Seems like the best idea mate

You could always sell it back on after if you don't need it?
true martin was a tight fit haha but got it all in on the way home with the boot closed! and i didnt have to put my seat forward so easy!

the best way to do it is easy if its the style i think it is.... simple remove the legs of the crane and with the rear seat down put them in with the wheels facing the back and then position the crane so what you lift the bottom and the handle can slide along the legs.... then do the same to remove and its really simple
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
I think i may have to delay the engine swap till nxt week cos i've been sufferin from quick flu then a week long cough feel like i'm drowning. So i'm not in condition for major car work and'll see doc if this is chest infection or pneumonia or summin.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
here's the crane when i got it. bit dusty, some scrapes n a rusty bar replaces the handle but it works

DSC04776.JPG
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after a good wipe with wd40

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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
ah bugga the cough, i feel just well enough, started draining fluids n disassembly last night

DSC04781.JPG


the gearbox oil had 2 big chips of metal in it worryingly, i did miss 1 or 2 gear shifts recently.
looking to remove engine by weekend
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
lsd gearbox removed from forged engine

DSC04782.JPG


little dry surface rust on thrust bearin n input shaft.
hmm i wonder if the dry input shaft could be the cause in the occasional sticking/grabbing clutch in that during brief slow speed stop/start engagements the clutchplate sometimes jam on the input shaft spline.
while i'm still releasing the clutch pedal the pressure plate engages against the seized clutchplate wayy before the flywheel face therefore feels as though the bite points very low but only feels like 50% bite.
once the pedals past 1/2 way there's enough force from the pressure plate to un-jam the clutchplate from the spline till both the PP & flywheel engages with the plate giving 100% bite

i've used copper grease on the splines now

DSC04783.JPG


same residue on clutchplate spline and diaphram fingers

DSC04784.JPG


clutch off

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flywheel looks fine

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clutch has improved

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on the flywheel side it's now contacting near 90%

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pressure plate side is contacting 100%

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pressure plates ok. thin minor band showing signs of previous juddering

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turbo sump & stock sump off

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stock engine abit caked after few trackdays

DSC04795.JPG


all transferred ready

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mounted

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everything installed. just need to fit the exhaust, tweak the turbo map for stock compression n we're ready
 
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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Well, exhaust fitted, fluids topped, took 2deg outa the new turbo remap comparing with original turbo map to suit stock compression.

Starts first time and purrs nicely. Running bit low on coolant as the last bubbles exit so need to get summore. Took her down motorway 70mph on boost, boy i missed this mid end torque. Checked oil and tis stable on first run. Cylinders bone dry and good compression. All lookin super dooper :)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
hmm this morning it struggled to to fire up on its own without flooring the throttle, like its flooded. gotta check if anythings leakin into the cylinders overnight
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
ecu reads the coolant sensor fine.

engine at the mo

DSC04800.JPG


this morning coolant tank level dropped 5mm and small pool of coolant on floor. again it doesn't fire up on its own and have to floor the throttle to get it going then a mist comes outa exhaust. forgot to check inside cylinder beforehand.
 
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