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PollyMobiles Rebuild

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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Seems like a LOT of work for ultimately a roughly small gain, is it worth all the work?

If body roll is that bad, fit a diffent ARB or springs or dampers/settings. Easier than all this...
when lowering a car this much along with exerting so much cornering force on circuits, the geometry will be all messed up and actually working "against" all those suspension upgrades, converting lateral forces into more roll.

fitting stiffer springs, bars and dampers will only band-aid the main roll issue and sacrifice on the other setup behaviour such as ride comfort and traction sensitivity.

we must spend abit of effort correcting the geometry and possibly lower CoG first to minimise roll forces and maximise tread area as a good foundation and then tune the springs & dampers to further improve motion control.
 

SuperUno

Buy & Sell Member
I agree with all that, but will all this work result in a massive improvement? Time/money/effort could be better spent on something else like tyres/brakes/etc... and give a better improvement.

TBH with your car, a cage would be my next work a) for safety and b) you won't be believe how much your shell is flexing.....
 
OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
I agree with all that, but will all this work result in a massive improvement? Time/money/effort could be better spent on something else like tyres/brakes/etc... and give a better improvement.

TBH with your car, a cage would be my next work a) for safety and b) you won't be believe how much your shell is flexing.....
tyres n brakes are already as maxed out as my budget allows. going any more just gets silly money. and tbh would just exagerate the problems more.
modding the lower hub joint with rose joint and machined extension in comparison will only cost few quid to correct the roll center which may reduce the roll and improve alot of related factors, I'd say it'll be worth it and essential for my application.

roll cage would be nice but:
no time or money to consider it yet,
heard some insurers are abit picky about roll cages causing more head injuries when driven daily without helmet,
I'd like to maintain the daily interior practicality,
no use stiffening the chassis yet to help the rear when the bad front roll center is tilting the whole chassis and pointing the rear suspension up in the air
 

frank

Club Member
the main problem is the angle of the wishbone eh paul, it needs to be pointing slightly downwards under cornering, whereas on a lowered k11 its pointing upwards and creating more body roll
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
the main problem is the angle of the wishbone eh paul, it needs to be pointing slightly downwards under cornering, whereas on a lowered k11 its pointing upwards and creating more body roll
the arm itself is just part of a mechanical linkage although it's important to keep the ball joint aligned along the arms strongest path else we'll start inducing bend forces it wasn't designed for.
the main problem is the imaginary pivot angle from the arms swing axis (front to rear bushing) to the hub uprights lower ball joint.

when I'm coasting or trail braking into a corner, this pivot angle (along with the arms) points up so the lateral forces transferring through the lower arms are just trying to yank the body over even more.

I need to mount the lower ball joint further away the wheel hub so this pivot angle points downwards most of the time, bringing the roll center higher towards the CoG.
but not too much (it's all about consistant balance) or else we'll get an opposite jacking force effect making the car lean into the turn and causing another set of issues.
that's why machining an extension with rose joints is more suitable to me than a fixed length ball joint cos I can adjust the amount of extension on the lathe.
 
All (I think) Matt is getting at is that every rally k11 I know has not bothered with this modification to the hub, and that those cars still handle really well... It does just seem like a hell of a lot of work for an inevitably small gain
 

frank

Club Member
rally cars usually run higher tho, so the wishbones dont point upwards
when paul is cornering hard (yellow arrow) the wishbone mount is forced downwards (blue arrow) hence the mad body roll

macstrut_wishbone_position.jpg
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
All (I think) Matt is getting at is that every rally k11 I know has not bothered with this modification to the hub, and that those cars still handle really well... It does just seem like a hell of a lot of work for an inevitably small gain
the configuration and application between my track car & Matts rally car are very different. just as frank says, matt is prob alot higher than mine and on bumpy slippery terrain so his front geometry is closer to original spec.
mine is running 50mm lower so the arm geometry is out of spec plus I run sticky tyres on smooth fast race tracks with high cornering forces.

whether it'll result in big or little improvement can only be answered by doing it scientifically and testing with facts rather than guessing from opinions.

the theory plus my current measurements points out that my low roll center geometry is causing body roll,
so next action is to apply the theory by extending the lower ball joint to correct the geometry and then retest & tune on track to verify the theory is factually correct.

rally cars usually run higher tho, so the wishbones dont point upwards
when paul is cornering hard (yellow arrow) the wishbone mount is forced downwards (blue arrow) hence the mad body roll

View attachment 50874
exactly frank
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Bonnet gas struts using boot struts

wanted to fit gas struts on the bonnet to get rid of the obstructing bonnet rod. got this boot gas strut from andys K11 and wondered if I could make it fit the bonnet

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the ball joints held in by clips

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Attempt 1. bolt boot fittings directly onto bonnet
I screwed the ball joint into this hole in the wing

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and this bracket onto the bonnet

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and it works but concerned with bolting into thin metal (should be riveted) and the off-set bracket was already putting some strain on those bolts

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the strut just clears the nearby wing bolt

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Attempt 2: make stiffer brackets bolted onto hinge bracket
welded these brackets that apply the load more evenly

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bolted them to the hinge bracket that's much stronger than bolting into thin bonnet metal BUT the geometry was too close to the pivot so the struts were barely able to support the bonnet, unable to fully open wide and the single bolt hole in the bracket wasn't a good idea

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Attempt 3: make new brackets
so I end up making these new brackets

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riveted at their ideal position so the bonnet is fully open when the struts fully extended

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now it works so good, its can even lift the bonnet up by itself. just gotta finish the other side tomorrow :cool:

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The f1000 junior rally lads run only on sealed surfaces and are very low (much lower than you Paul) and as said they get around this simply by running stiffer springs :)

Obviously, it's a cool theory to look into Paul and theoretically it will help, certainly be interesting to see how much it helped with body roll
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
The f1000 junior rally lads run only on sealed surfaces and are very low (much lower than you Paul) and as said they get around this simply by running stiffer springs :)

Obviously, it's a cool theory to look into Paul and theoretically it will help, certainly be interesting to see how much it helped with body roll
I have a spare stiffer 6kg front coil, just need to buy a helper spring and stiffer rear coils.
this needs doing step by step. fix geometry first then stiffen spring rate.
obviously can't go ultra stiff cos it's a daily car.
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Agreed on tarmac I am running lower than Paul does. With 250lb springs I have minimal body roll....
250lb/in that bout 4.5kg/mm?
I'm running 4/3kg front/rear.
whiteline swaybars set hard.

perhaps all my heavy interior, turbo system & sunroof etc is raising my CoG compared to urs?
how much bump & rebound travel?
 

SuperUno

Buy & Sell Member
Not sure on how much travel, but this is on Spax 'forest'spec dampers all round and OEM ARB's.

The car is quite light 850kg in stage spec (sump guard, 3/4 tank of fuel etc...) and I have worked hard to remove weight or relocate in the centre of the car.
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
a new stainless flexipipe arrived to replace my old rusty one falling apart

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the old one has mild steel ends and welded with mild steel wire so it's now rusted and breaking apart. hope these are real stainless and not plated steel. awaiting some stainless MIG wire before fixing.

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finished the other bonnet strut :D with two struts it really pushes up hard now, requires abit of force to push it down but at least it won't flap in the wind. brackets just need painting

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OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
got a polisher from argos in hopes of making the job easier

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as you've figured, I took it apart to see if it could be serviced, nope

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it's abit dark but gave it a quick try.
cable needs extending badly, gonna need alot of polish and buff wheels and more practice.
it shakes so much I'll have vibration fingers by the end :p
well it's still no easier or faster than doing by hand. resume it tomorrow

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OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
stainless MIG wire arrived so I can begin fixing the downpipe

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removed the downpipe

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the braid and welding may have been stainless but geez the cheap collars were definately mild steel

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after bashing with hammer it's no surprise it failed to hold during boost

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new piece is longer so I can simply cut and weld it on

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cut old section off

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ah this cheap ebay flexipipe must be the same with mild steel inner & outer collars (familiar satin looking finish with seam weld) and a zinc plated steel outer collar :rolleyes:
suppose I'll be fixing it again in few years

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tacked

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exhaust abit close to the chassis, especially with this longer flexible section

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welded with a hot setting and pulsing. nice when it works

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complete :cool:

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now it doesn't stink of fumes anymore during boost
 
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OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
trying to locate where this bad oil leak down the sides is coming from

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the timing chain side cover seems fine. a good, even, consistant, unbroken & dry seal all around

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removed the top cover

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and again all the sealing surfaces are good n dry

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seems to be most oily from these two stud points but all the gaskets are sealing fine and there's no obvious cracks? this is most baffling.
gonna try resealing it with copper gasket sealant this time as andy advised.

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OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
following this ytube guide I grinded my first HSS lathe bit and turned out not too bad :cool:


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machined a collar to fit over the spark plug tubes for a snug seal to replace the tape wrapping.

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OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
all 4 spark plug tube collars machined and hammered in place

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applied thin bead of copper sealant, test it out once dried tomorrow

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OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
sealant cured and reassembled.
I haven't done a revving exhaust video for awhile now so decided to video afew angles in the countryside.


she cranks nicely nowadays when cold or warm. still smokes quite abit during any overrun. sounds different out in the open compared to the garage/back alley.

checking the sealant after a drive and it's dry, let's hope it stays dry.
 
that's why machining an extension with rose joints is more suitable to me than a fixed length ball joint cos I can adjust the amount of extension on the lathe.
I don't think I'd change the arms at all...

What I'm thinking is doing it in 2 made parts, the first is essentially like the bottom of the hub (indeed you could hack it off an old set of hubs and clean it up) it's job is to fit over the taper but also to give a flat surface at the top to sandwich the next bit to.

This would leave us with a thread from the ball joint / taper sticking out the top of a steel block, we've managed to move the ball joint down the height of the block (20mm?) but we need something to attach to the thread and recreate the taper further up...

Another steel block with a drilled and threaded hole in the bottom that will screw down on to the first and lock in the taper then lathe the taper above this and tap a thread at the top.

Details:
I'd not cut the block too narrow as there needs to be enough material surrounding the threads, I also have the idea that the threads won't resist a sideways lateral load well but are more for loading in tension so a wider block resists sideways loads and the thread is just to pull it together as it was in the original part.

Starting the taper immediately on top of the end of the threaded hole from underneath is obviously going to be bad, your 40mm measurement gives enough room from rough working out to space the 2 apart to get the strength required.

I'd ensure the top block with the machined taper has at least the nut's worth of thread, initially it would seem as though it has to but if you progress to adjusting it to gain more than 40mm then you might put a spacer in there, or if you need less height you might need to trim the top off the ball joint thread (material that would have stuck up the top of the nut) to allow it to take up less space.

There's the problem that this thing might come undone, initially i thought of using a split pin but this would be difficult and risks weakening the thread and surrounding part. My current thought is once assembled drilling on the seam between the 2 parts and using a roll pin to stake it, I've seen this on my mini's steering rack.

Getting the top threaded part done up is relatively easily solved, just machine or grind some flats on the outsides of both parts so you can put an all be it large spanner on them to do them up.

I realise this description might not be the best so feel free to ask me what i mean if it's weird or if I've missed something, I'm on holidays though so I wont be on all that regularly. I was previously not sure how you'd accurately machine the tapers otherwise i might have progressed the idea further.
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Polly sad, alone, tired, slipping away from reality again, mind chemistry is prob fcked, need therapy must call some mental centre, sign off may not update bout jae yet, just dunno, doesn't matter. Blablabaa sleep it off, bye......
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
I'm sorry, just slipping away back into depression and anxiety. body is tired, angry, heavy chest & constipated. mind is emotionless, heart hurts, don't wanna look at or even be anywhere near humans.
I can't explain but the symptoms worsened after I puked at jae and my overthinking mind has turned all my perceptions against me. so as well as not looking forward to a smelly puked tent n miserable rain, I also felt uneasy, out of place, freakin out, uninterested in cars or crowds. something was wrong so decided to leave early.

my daily habit of posting the usual updates here about the event and stuff I'm doing to keep things in order is tempting but clearly I'm not in the mood or mindset and should just step away from online for abit and curl into a foetus.

I've just been able to send an email to this autism & mental specialist person in leeds that a friend had referred (I never had the confidence to apply for the past months but now it's desperate), so hopefully I get a feedback.
 

Antony

Ex. Club Member
I'm sorry, just slipping away back into depression and anxiety. body is tired, angry, heavy chest & constipated. mind is emotionless, heart hurts, don't wanna look at or even be anywhere near humans.
I can't explain but the symptoms worsened after I puked at jae and my overthinking mind has turned all my perceptions against me. so as well as not looking forward to a smelly puked tent n miserable rain, I also felt uneasy, out of place, freakin out, uninterested in cars or crowds. something was wrong so decided to leave early.

my daily habit of posting the usual updates here about the event and stuff I'm doing to keep things in order is tempting but clearly I'm not in the mood or mindset and should just step away from online for abit and curl into a foetus.

I've just been able to send an email to this autism & mental specialist person in leeds that a friend had referred (I never had the confidence to apply for the past months but now it's desperate), so hopefully I get a feedback.
If you fancy a few days away were always here to chat crap and arent too far from london.
I dont mind taking a few days off work and just taking a walk through trafalgar square.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
 

solarice

Ex. Club Member
When was the last time you drove it?
A while ago (car battery was borrowed temporarily to never return / that plus just not getting my insurance worth as neverout on the streets). Would need a proper service before heading back out assuming all is aok.
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
I don't think I'd change the arms at all...

What I'm thinking is doing it in 2 made parts, the first is essentially like the bottom of the hub (indeed you could hack it off an old set of hubs and clean it up) it's job is to fit over the taper but also to give a flat surface at the top to sandwich the next bit to.

This would leave us with a thread from the ball joint / taper sticking out the top of a steel block, we've managed to move the ball joint down the height of the block (20mm?) but we need something to attach to the thread and recreate the taper further up...

Another steel block with a drilled and threaded hole in the bottom that will screw down on to the first and lock in the taper then lathe the taper above this and tap a thread at the top.

Details:
I'd not cut the block too narrow as there needs to be enough material surrounding the threads, I also have the idea that the threads won't resist a sideways lateral load well but are more for loading in tension so a wider block resists sideways loads and the thread is just to pull it together as it was in the original part.

Starting the taper immediately on top of the end of the threaded hole from underneath is obviously going to be bad, your 40mm measurement gives enough room from rough working out to space the 2 apart to get the strength required.

I'd ensure the top block with the machined taper has at least the nut's worth of thread, initially it would seem as though it has to but if you progress to adjusting it to gain more than 40mm then you might put a spacer in there, or if you need less height you might need to trim the top off the ball joint thread (material that would have stuck up the top of the nut) to allow it to take up less space.

There's the problem that this thing might come undone, initially i thought of using a split pin but this would be difficult and risks weakening the thread and surrounding part. My current thought is once assembled drilling on the seam between the 2 parts and using a roll pin to stake it, I've seen this on my mini's steering rack.

Getting the top threaded part done up is relatively easily solved, just machine or grind some flats on the outsides of both parts so you can put an all be it large spanner on them to do them up.

I realise this description might not be the best so feel free to ask me what i mean if it's weird or if I've missed something, I'm on holidays though so I wont be on all that regularly. I was previously not sure how you'd accurately machine the tapers otherwise i might have progressed the idea further.
thx for the suggestion fuzzy, I've thought about this idea of an adapter extension but the problem is that shifting the original ball joint stub 40mm down means the tip of the thread is right at the opening of the tapered hole under the hub upright.
this means there's not alot of meat between tapered hole and original stub to withstand both the tension of the hub upright nut AND the massive forces from the extended balljoint below trying to snap it off.
extending it beyond 40mm to add more gap therefore more available meat would make the arm foul the wheel rim.

what I'm thinking of was either:
sourcing & fitting a normal ball joint but the length of the shaft between the balljoint and the threaded tapered tip that goes into the hub is longer,
or fit a rose-joint / spherical bearing on the arm and machine a longer shaft/spacer between the joint and the hub upright tapered hole.
 
OP
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
you need another project to occupy that genius brain of yours paul :)
more like I need to resolve my mental state then find a job to keep me occupied, organised/purposeful, restore financial stability so that I can afford working on & maintain projects.

project cars and working on any projects ain't cheap or free and my savings running out fast which doesn't help.
 
OP
OP
pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
If you fancy a few days away were always here to chat crap and arent too far from london.
I dont mind taking a few days off work and just taking a walk through trafalgar square.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
if only I wasn't sooooo far up north away from civilisation :p
I'm not much interested in walking around sight seeing tourist places imo, I'm more into just going for a good drive through lush empty scenery.
 
Ah ok, so it uses up too much space, i wondered if it would. If you were to add camber to the bottom arm how much would be enough?
Also how much negative camber could you offset with a conventional camber kit?
What I'm thinking is the same adapter type of thing but out of one piece this time but the top taper is outboard of the bottom taper and thread, in effect lengthening the arm by say 10mm creating negative camber, if it's too much negative camber maybe a conventional strut top camber adjustment can gain some back. This would mean a slightly wider track... Not sure if that'd cause problem though. I haven't gone thought through this solution much though.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
JAE 2016

So with a clean, polished dry car it obviously began to pour down on the thursday:rolleyes:
forgot to align the wiper blades yesterday so the drivers wiper was damaged when I began using em. so had to stop by halfords to grab a new blade.
on the way out, I spotted a halfords guy & lady in their red micra just arriving for work taking interest in kasandra, this made me smile :D:)
had a quick chat, popped the hood, gave a little blip, they luved it and really made her day to see it :cool: onwards with the 2hr journey.

arrived at a very windy, sunny and changing JAE. helped the guys n gals pop up the MSC marquee and all our tents in this wind tunnel :confused:

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took josh, laura & lyra to asda in kasandra for supplies.
twas a nice thursday night of drinking n very lush bbq by master chef Joe.

Friday morning we cleaned our cars.

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karls sisters honda had a white smoking issue on the way over so I had a check over.
Hmm the dipstick's like 200% full? found to all of our surprise that when she saw the dipstick was very low, she poured an entire 4L oil carton into the engine!!!:eek: how is it still intact?
so guess we'll have to drain it abit.

on the way to asda for a drain tub n bottle, we got a call to come back cos JAE was taking group photos, so U-turned back to join this nice MSC photo shoot

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coming back from asda with supplies, I drained & refilled the honda's sump the proper amount and it works fine again :cool:

also met dave shaw LowRider and his blue turbo beast :D


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made a funny comparison that if kasandra was the boosted k11 sporty girlfriend with her tidy white heels/sneakers, daves stealthy blue turbo 1.4 would be the boosted k11 boyfriend :p

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friday night I finished my remaining bottles of desperados and then tried out Toms strong mix of vodka/coke (which got Ben abit drunk on thursday), the sweet taste totally hid the vodka. bout 4 cups later with bbq I was drunk. we later all went to the bumper-cars, which was violent when getting t-boned and afew ppl bruised their knee.
my last memory was going to toilets with tom & max and then on my way back to the stand I fell on the grass and these high-vis security guys helped drag me back to my tent :confused::confused:

middle of the night, laying at the side of a cold rainy airbed the world was spinning and I puked all over my bed :oops::(
urgh this was most unpleasant cos now I'm covered in this wet mess, the stench making me gag, I'm getting freezing cold, it's raining and I'm too drunk/tired to get up (thought I was gonna freeze to death).

with whatever tiny sober energy remaining, I removed my freezing cold messed clothes and changed into my last emergency clothes (thank god or else I'd be walking around on saturday covered in sick).
I was soo miserable, upset, ruined wanted to cry but can't.:(:oops:

early morning whilst still pissing down, I cleaned up in the toilets, grabbed a nice breakfast tray from the food stall and sat in my car to eat & warm up.

what a shyte saturday, non-stop pissing, I walked around the show soaking wet with andy but for some reason & wasn't enjoying the cars as much as I should normally, felt socially anxious around ppl, just felt ignored, outcast, pointless, frustrated that my mind wasn't letting me socialise, twas making me paranoid. I dunno whats going on but wasn't looking forward to a sick tent, wet clothes, cold night and felt I done enough of fixing ppls cars...I just wanted to go home :(:(
had my last BBQ and fairwell to everyone and headed home.

dunno if it was the light-head residual alchohol feeling, or the paranoid anxiety or just bright headlights at night on unfamiliar roads, but I felt abit nervous driving kasandra home like as though I'm going too fast for a corner and she might lose grip.

so good to be safely home, warm, clean and in a big bed.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
the first few days after JAE, something ain't right cos I was falling back into depression & anxiety, angry, frustrated.
had a good chat with close m8s, mom, sister and perhaps I'm too harsh & strict on myself with unrealistic self-inflicted perfect expectations influenced by media?

I finally resorted to contacting this autism & psychology specialist lady in leeds that a m8 suggested last june but was too afraid/anxious/lazy to email. but now it's desperate, funds running out, not worked for 1.5yrs and still feel as fragile as ever with no sight of resolving my life.
gonna see her on monday and then put kasandra through her MOT and then decided I need a solo roadtrip myself to get a break (haven't done a solo roadtrip since my first one 10yrs ago so would be nice to have gone full-circle :p ).

cancelled all car show/meetup stuff for the rest of the year now as advised by family cos it won't help my mental state nor my life and should now be focusing on healing myself and finding work.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
was assessing & thinking over the ball joint extension,
thought rather than cut & weld a weaker threaded rose-joint onto the old arms, what if I could retain a simple spherical-bearing inside the existing bore hole in the arm (retain the arms structure & strength) and then machine the extension shafts on the lathe?

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before MOT and tuning suspension at andys, time to overhaul these 6yr old rusty coilovers

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the poor covers have worn through

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took some effort to loosen the rusted locking collars but managed to dismantle it all

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wirebrushed, painted, greased & assembled the fronts. would prefer to powdercoat the rusted parts at a future date but a lick of paint will do for now.
need to remake the covers and then do the rears.

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SuperUno

Buy & Sell Member
We have all been there, caught out by one (or a few) too many drinks. More than once did a student / uni night end like yours last weekend. The only thing is as you get older hangovers last longer.... They can cause the issues you felt.

If your road trip comes near Aylesbury, do pop by.
 
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