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PollyMobiles Rebuild

yikes. suppose tis all this black friday/cyber monday/etc online xmas demand and also reduced workforce thats just overloading their infrastructure?
think I read if it took over 7days u can claim compensation from delayed service?
I would imagine you can claim at any stage now if you haven't got the service you paid for . Their workforce actually increases at this time of year unfortunately it's the level of English spoken by a proportion of those short term staff that doesn't help :(
 

Antony

Ex. Club Member
You'd imagine yes, but that's not the case.

A late delivery is one that is at least 9 days late. Even if you've paid for next day..
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
just got a reply from john at Gripper, seems royal mail tracking system is out of sync but least it's arrived there.

Your LSD has been stripped and we've been in consultation with
the design engineers at 'Belleville Springs'. For your loading cycle
they have recommended fitting double Belleville springs to prevent the
springs fully flattening. We have rebuilt the LSD to the latest spec
with these double springs and will ship it out back to you tonight.
:)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
before opening the diff, I wanted to measure what the preload is to begin with.
connected the driveshafts into the diff and try to measure the slipping torque but it wasn't giving, even if the shaft began to twist abit. this was a huge amount of preload which ain't good for daily use o_O
ok can't measure the preload, lets open it up and see whats going on.
installed in the gearbox

IMAG1563.jpg


loosened the bolts in star pattern, had a dab of threadlock

IMAG1564.jpg


cover off, wavy spring had a dab of moly grease

IMAG1565.jpg
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diff cage insert has been replaced

IMAG1567.jpg
IMAG1568.jpg


here's the new dual stacked belleville washers

IMAG1569.jpg
IMAG1571.jpg


all disassembled n cleaned

IMAG1572.jpg


Belleville washer 1
the first upper washer measured
thick: 2.65mm
offset: 1.1mm
OD: 74.88mm
ID: 57.33mm

IMAG1573.jpg
IMAG1574.jpg
IMAG1575.jpg


Belleville washer 1
second lower washer measured
thick: 2.65mm
offset: 1.0mm
OD: 74.88mm
ID: 57.32mm

both washers roughly the same

IMAG1576.jpg
IMAG1577.jpg
IMAG1578.jpg


Outer plate 1: 1.74mm

IMAG1579.jpg
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Inner plate 1: 1.56mm
ooh an interesting new concentric offset groove design to probably help lubricate and smoothen the engagement

IMAG1582.jpg
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Outer plate 2: 1.57mm

IMAG1585.jpg
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Inner plate 2: 1.58mm

IMAG1588.jpg
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Outer plate 3: 1.57mm

IMAG1591.jpg
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Inner plate 3: 1.50mm

IMAG1594.jpg
IMAG1595.jpg


Ah the planet driver is the same with the previous chipped cracks o_O wonder how long they'll last

IMAG1597.jpg
IMAG1598.jpg


so reason the preload is so high is cos the plates are all new, thicker and rough so will need bedding in.
next reassemble with morris oil and see if the preload changed.
 
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Antony

Ex. Club Member
Tbh, if I got an lsd back from quaife, I'd have left it assembled..... Fitted it and dealt with it.

Bugger taking it apart.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Tbh, if I got an lsd back from quaife, I'd have left it assembled..... Fitted it and dealt with it.

Bugger taking it apart.
for most ppl who just fit n forget yes, but not me.
I like to double check what work was done to it, measure & capture the conditions of the rings so I can monitor them in future, then reassemble it to my standards.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
well it's been 3 days of hell suffering from a cold, stuck in bed with fever, sore throat, cough, runny blocked nose, pounding headache in early morning but unable to find pills, aching legs n skin, the lot :(

but tday it's better so lets continue with the diff.

meticulously cleaned all the plates with carb cleaner

DSC09891.JPG


removed this tiny petruding cast flash line with a file so it doesn't jam in the LSD casing

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plates oiled n assembled

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drop of threadlock fed into the blind hole

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torqued up

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gearbox casing cleaned n pasted

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all bolted up

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was about to insert the shafts in to test the preload but somethings wrong here.
the splined shafts slots into the RH hole with ease as normal but both shafts are barely able to enter 2mm into the LH hole? eh? there's no major obstruction visible and the splines not damaged.
the only possible cause is that the splined side-gear hole and the hole in the LSD end cover that holds the shaft are misaligned whilst tightening the bolts

DSC09899.JPG


and so I gotta take it all apart and reclean/retap every part again :rolleyes: afternoons work wasted

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k now lesson to be learnt. whenever I fit the end cover, insert the driveshaft and use it to keep the cover aligned with the side gear till all the bolts are tightened

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bolts torqued

DSC09903.JPG


box all reassembled and now the shaft slots in with ease :cool:

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right, now I can test the preload.

anchor one end of the shaft while I turn the other shaft with my torque wrench, it now slips more noticeably after overhaul it. I know that measuring preload via drive shafts rather than directly at the diff ain't accurate due to twisting but I only just need a rough baseline estimate so that next time I could just easily monitor the reading by jacking one wheel up n measure the preload via the driveshaft nut.

the measured break-away torque in its current state is bout 120Nm (just overhauled, fresh new unbedded thick rough LSD plates with thin layer of LSD oil, stone cold)
this reading will prob change once cars all assembled and will definately change once the oils heated up and after bedding in, but least I have a reading to start logging from.

DSC09906.JPG


soon prepping the other stuff in the bay before fitting it all together over xmas
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
one of the rear gearbox mount bolt hole has cracked abit but its a minor issue, still got the other 3 bolts holding it.

DSC09907.JPG


removed the damaged heater coolant return hose

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replacement routed correctly

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cleaned all threads n fitted the fly

DSC09909.JPG


and clutch

DSC09911.JPG
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
installed gearbox

DSC09912.JPG
DSC09913.JPG


was tightening the rear mount bolt when crack, the faulty casing fractured. not much torque left but it's kinda snug enough. to fix it would prob require either a new bellhousing/gearbox or fabricate a new rear mount bracket to bolt onto the other 3 bolt holes around the driveshaft port.

DSC09914.JPG
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
There probably is a fancy way to stick weld Ally
But you can go get it welded up :)
googled bout alu electrodes and there are so many problems with using em. tbh for joining such small piece the difficulty and overall cost and lack of success really isn't worth attempting.
could get it welded back on by a shop, if that fractured piece stays on which I doubt.
I could either make an alternative rear mount bracket to use the other available bolt holes,
or swap over the bellhousing off the other spare gearbox,
or buy another gearbox but they cost £60-100 on ebay
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
ok tday reassembled the bay, filled & primed all fluids.
cranked the engine and from sitting over a month she struggles to clear her throat, had to WOT cold crank and she gradually clears up n runs ok.

drove out the garage with full lock and boy there's alot of preload as the LSD stutters loudly n shakes/rocks the car as the wheels drag through the bend. think this is all cos the lsd oil is cold and non of it has worked its way into the plates yet hence it grabs.

drive through town to warm everything up. when the lsd tries to lock n stutter during sharp bends, the slipping action of the grooved plate's actually very smooth n subtle whereas yrs ago with the first version of this lsd using 2-way with flat smooth plates it used to go bang, bang bang! very loudly n violently during full lock.

went to afew empty car parks on this xmas cold night and do afew slow figure-8 laps to break-in the lsd.
noticed that during full lock LH turns it works quietly and only during full lock RH turns does it emit a slight stutter noise and can feel the car n steering stutter back forth as the plates slips but is really progressively smooth compared to previous versions.

back at home after the initial run and warmed up gearbox oil, lets measure the preload.
the RH wheel measured 85nm clockwise and 110nm counterclockwise.
the LH wheel also measured 85nm clockwise and 110nm counterclockwise. that's wierd, I thought the preload would be directional relative to the cars motion from looking at the ramps, instead it appears to be relative to the LSD casing.

so this result says the locking preload amount on a one-sided LSD clutchpack is stronger when the wheels are twisting one-way than the other way. this explains why the lsd locking action is stronger and louder turning right compared to turning left.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
A quick stitch weld from a shop will be your best, cheapest and quickest solution

Merry Christmas btw Paul :)
merry chrimbo andy. I'll see how this current setup stands up, don't really wanna take the gearbox out cos lota work, just want it to work for the moment.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
drove around tday to try find an empty place to resume break-in the LSD, went to an industrial park and there's afew empty closed car parks since everyones off for xmas.

followed this procedure from KAAZ LSD. 20 figure-8s, 10 light-load low-speed loops clockwise and counterclockwise.

LSD.jpg


I notice that when no torque is applied through the LSD (clutch is down or in neutral) and there's a speed difference between the left/right wheel (turning), the LSD emits no sound during LH turns and only a slight quiet gentle chatter during RH turns.

during the low-speed LH/RH loops, when a slight amount of torque is applied through the LSD in-gear whilst the inner/outer wheel has a large speed difference, the LSD begins to lock and emits a loud shaking clack-clack-clack! during RH turns, its less severe during higher speed turns but has minimal effect during LH turns.

when medium/high torque is applied to LSD during turns, it locks so much that it amplifies the loud clank, the inner wheel slips/skips along the road and the thin driveshaft is like an elastic shaft.

so the rotation speed difference between the LH/RH shafts/wheels seems to effect the frequency of the skipping chatter of the LSD plates,
the driveshafts act like a torsion spring storing energy till the torque overcomes the LSD plates static friction and releases it as a loud sudden clank!,
the amount of force squeezing the LSD plates (from both the preload washer and the wedge effect of the ramps from the applied engine torque) effects the amplitude & severity of the clank! when the LSD plates slips.

when setting off initially at low speed whilst turning (ie u-turns or t-junctions), the powertrain experiences the highest amount of torque in low gear, hence my LSD chatters loudly when driving out the garage or doing a 3-point turn.
during high speed cruising turns the powertrain doesn't experience as much torque during high gear, hence the LSD remains quiet until I apply more power.

after running it for afew laps and 30miles, the plates have worn in abit and preload now dropped from 110/85nm to 100/75nm. afew more days of break-in n see if the chatter smooths out

also to note, after replacing the input shaft bearing, the gear stick now no longer moves around when on/off power in any gear.
 
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You might consider upgrading the longer shaft to a torque tube Paul to balance it out

Corner weights will also have a huge effect on the wheel load in corners with regards to the lsd
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
You might consider upgrading the longer shaft to a torque tube Paul to balance it out

Corner weights will also have a huge effect on the wheel load in corners with regards to the lsd
maybe, if I had time n budget but it's low priority and unessential work n expense.

the cars already corner balanced same as last time with same tyres. the main cause for skipping is the loose damp uneven gravelly surface I was running on and cold tyres and high initial preload.
things improve later on
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Gripper LSD Break-In

so here's what happened during the break-in.
drove out the garage, warmed up the car and picked up some batteries n lights in tesco for the cameras.


now recording footage of the clutch arm (to see the operation & how the bracket flexs), suspension, pedals and gauges.
driving down to next town to find an empty industrial estate car park to run around in.


at the empty car park I begin following the break-in procedure for the kaaz LSD explained previously above. 20 figure 8, 20 loops left & right


as the lsd still locks agressively during slow turns, on the second run I keep a constant load through the LSD whilst doing 20 figure 8s to work the diff harder and try bed it in faster
when I previously coast around a turn, its quiet.
when I idle in-gear around a turn to apply light load, you can hear how the LSD sounds like a football rattle or casino roulette wheel :p
when I apply just a slight touch of throttle, it makes the LSD lock and clunk n skips the inner tyre on the loose tarmac.


another figure 8 runs through an empty car park but on a drier solid surface, the tyre skips less and chatters loudly instead.
while keeping a constant throttle load, I notice that whenever I begin to turn the steering from straight and the LSD plates first begin to slide past each other, it makes that chatter/rattling LSD noise.

if I prolong that full lock turn beyond afew secs the noise begins to go away and ends up slipping silently (it's like as though the excess gear oil has slowly worked it's way deep into the touching surfaces of the LSD plates as they're slipping and begins to lubricate the engagement).

when I straighten the steering back so the LSD plates no longer slip past each other n the film of excess oil it was riding on collapses, it seems that the preload washer squeezes the excess oil back out the plates so that the next time the steerings turned, it resumes chattering till it builds up enough film.


after a whole afternoon breaking-in the LSD and the oil is all hot n worked up, I find that whilst driving around the estate the LSD is now always chattering during any turns.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
cruising home after a long break-in session.


the LSD preload first started off at 110/85nm
after the first 30ml session of break-in it went to 100/75nm
after the long 40ml afternoons break-in session in the videos above, it dropped to 85/75nm
tonight whilst going to from pub I noticed that the LSD is really quiet no chattering but can still hop a wheel when I set off a t-junction with power. the preload back at home measured 70/60nm

perhaps it's reached a sweet spot where it's bedded in enough and on the cold night during normal use, the gear oils viscous enough to cusion the LSD plates n reduce the preload & noise. maybe a good time to change LSD oil and will monitor the preload over the miles.

preload1.jpg
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
tday I repeated the LSD break-in route and it seems that gearbox oil temp really affects the amount of chatter.
last night going to the pub was just a short cold run so the gearbox isn't fully upto temp so it runs quiet.
tday cruising all the way to the next town got the oil upto temp and whilst doing the figure 8s it once again resumes the chattering noises.

back at home after another bed-in session the preload returns back upto 85/75nm

2.jpg


checking the wear rate of the 595rsr, breaking-in the LSD wears the front end rapidly (the last two entry points)

595rsr.gif


the engine compression has now stabilised at a high 11bars

comp.jpg
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
swapping back to the daily T1R tyres

IMAG1608.jpg


when the gear oil was stone cold, the preload measured 70/60nm and it doesn't chatter much during turns.
after going for another break-in route, the warmed up gear oil now has a preload of 85/75nm and chatters under load. so gear oil temp definately changes the preload and chatter noise.

the warm preload seems to have levelled off so tis a good time to change the oil.

as usual a little bit of shavings on the plug magnet and the gear oil looks slightly grey.

IMAG1609.jpg
IMAG1610.jpg


went for a long cruise to heat up the gear oil, it takes afew miles.
has the new oil changed the noise? nope it still chatters once warmed up but only when I apply any torque through the LSD, guess it's the nature of the diff I'll have to live with.

so here's a record of the LSD warm preload readings and u can see that after the first two break-in sessions going 20 figure 8s and loops, the preload levels out as the plates are full worn into each other.

lsd.jpg
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
must note that since I cleaned, annealed n resealed the big oil gallery plug copper ring next to the flywheel, the underside of the gearbox isn't dripping with oil anymore and after these few days of running, the oil consumption has improved alot.

to further reduce the oil leakage, time to replace the old hardened rocker cover gasket.
the regular oil changes keeping the insides all clean

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scraped all the old sealant off, wipe down with carb cleaner, applied sealant only to circular cutouts on the LH & RH as haynes wrote, hoping the new pliable gasket seals fine

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new softer gasket seal on the cover, tightened down much as I can

DSC09919.JPG
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
the rocker cover leaking slightly where sealant wasn't applied. gonna have to reseal em again.

both RH suspension has been rattling abit but oddly only over shallow high freq bumps like gravel at low speed.
at the rear I found the cause was a loose locknut on the adjustable trailing arms.

DSC09920.JPG


at the front I found that the pillowball top mount on the BC V1 coilovers has worn abit loose so will need replacing. no one sells a spare V1 top mount, and dunno where to source the pillowball bearings themselves, Andy d'u know? may need to email local BC dealer for any spares?
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
tried realigning the wheels on weekend cos whenever the hub-strut are disturbed, the camber n tracking goes wayy off n wears the tyres out.
rear axle a mm offset (adjust panhard), axle thrust angle pointing tiny bit left, front left camber abit more than right and front end was really toed out.

straightened the front toe. when the steerings straight it drives straight but somethings causing it to drift left alot. I'll try swapping left/right tyres due to uneven wear of the T1Rs but if it still drifts when I'll have to remove n wirebrush the heavily rusted panhard & trailing arms n readjust the whole lot all over again till it's pointing dead straight.
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
some exciting news tonight.
my cousin who I went to trackdays with, messaged me that a small group of em r planning on going to nurburgring in july and asked if I was interested? this has been in talks for few yrs and for once in a lifetime, course I wanna go :)
although my job n income ain't certain and although the cars not 100% perfect, most of the major bits r resolved and alot could change by july, the oppurtunity has come and tis my ambition to go.

says the eurostar, hotel, track, some karting n tour guide tis only £450 all in, bargain :cool:, and the guys german breakdown cover is extra £67 that'll recover the car from track back to UK.
overall it's my sorta cuppa tea for a perfect roadtrip adventure holiday :)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
If your car drives completely straight on a normal road then there's an issue
Slight left drift is perfectly normal
drifts left on all roads, tis an annoyance. once I clean up the rear arms I'll straighten it all up n perhaps induce abit more front left camber to counteract the road slope?
 
some exciting news tonight.
my cousin who I went to trackdays with, messaged me that a small group of em r planning on going to nurburgring in july and asked if I was interested? this has been in talks for few yrs and for once in a lifetime, course I wanna go :)
although my job n income ain't certain and although the cars not 100% perfect, most of the major bits r resolved and alot could change by july, the oppurtunity has come and tis my ambition to go.

says the eurostar, hotel, track, some karting n tour guide tis only £450 all in, bargain :cool:, and the guys german breakdown cover is extra £67 that'll recover the car from track back to UK.
overall it's my sorta cuppa tea for a perfect roadtrip adventure holiday :)
Disney for petrol heads! :)
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
You could do but then you're disadvantaging one side :)
only a tiny amount so I don't have to always correct the steering but this is mostly on road anyway. when I go on track, it'll be realigned straight. but first have to swap left/right tyres to see if tread depth is causing it
 
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pollyp

pollyp

Club Member
Awesome Paul
We ordered one yesterday. Can't wait :p
I can't wait either. same one?
heard some ppl saying cos they're under administration, orders took ages or never arrived.
although I've been emailed that mines already been despatched and due arrive tomorrow. prob cos this was a clearance website they wanna sell this stuff off asap. fine by me, long as I get all the bits n working :cool:
can't wait to start designing n making plastic bits for the car n stuff
 
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