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NOSsan K10 Micra WON Litre...

SammoHung

SammoHung

Chaps,

I had originally planned this to be complete for mid May 07 but a few unavoidable have come up lately so completion (success or failure??) will be delayed a bit.

I don't think it’s practical to duplicate the thread here so instead I'll just post this link to the progress report (fingers crossed that admin will be OK with this)....

http://www.technical-forum.com/nitrous-advice-forum/nossan-k10-micra-won-litre-t2799.html

I will keep the above thread up to date as progress is made (or not as the present case is grrrr)

Have fun

<EDIT: Server changes....the above link has been updated>
 
aha so its you thats doing it, i wondered who it was.

whats the feeling that the standard fuel pump will flow enough, ive got
a feeling it will flow enough

i like where you put the injector shows that you taking your time and thinking how to fit it properly, unlike alot of other people they would just put it any where

i seriously want first refusal on the nos kit and carb mount if you can't carry on with the project,
 
Cheers Fordy

I've been advised by BoB that the std pump is good for 80bhp....but i want to check it out with a test before fireing anything up lol (kaboom)
 
wow, kept that quiet from us lot! (MSC'ers). Great little project, and an interesting read. Like the look of it all so far, keep it up!

Look after that Datsun in the background too ;)
 
Should be fine, but I have had problems on some installs with the injector being so near the manifold before it has a chance to mix with incoming air very well.
 
Nice one Sammo :D Looks like a really fun-to-build project that you've undertaken. Also sounds like your new gaf is gonna be nicer to work in with it's posh garage!! lol Would love to see the results of this :) keep us updated mate! You seem to have done a really good job so far. I know a bit about working with nitrous, but have never installed a kit into a car of my own, will be really interesting to see how the MA10 reacts.
 
SammoHung said:
I thought Liz let it slip to you guys when we picked up 'thunderbird three' (AKA 'the silver bullet')?
Click to expand...

I cant recall it, unfortunatly! Even if she did, i wouldnt believe it until i see it, and i certainly see it now! :)
 
thought about doing this a long time ago be very intrested to see it working, whats left to do mate looks like you've completed most of the work ;)
 
1) Fuel tests to see how much additional fuel the standard pump can deliver without leaning out either on the carb side or the nitrous enrichment side...
Just waiting on a low-pressure transducer for this....(WAITING...lol)

2) Plumbing bottle to solenoid and fuel to solenoid

3) Rest of the wiring from controller I/O to solenoids, transducers, and dash lamp etc (all optionnal)

3) System Tests

4) Use (bang?.....lol)

6) Play and tweak

5) When most the novelty has worn off I'll do a 2-4 month analysis and report of how 'practical' and cost effective this is for normal and regular use for on the road driving (in a K10)

6) Feed this info back to both you guys and the Wizards of NOS

7) Then play with some more parameters :)
 
My WON Streetblaster ran a 25 shot on Little Rocky just fine, making the install a little more permanent and it'll be a complete fixture for now, waiting on word from a couple of turbo kits before I head much further with the car though...
 
Dan, Id be interested to see how you get on with those kits :)
 
sammo- superb work my friend :)

its making me think more and more about fitting my kit to the K10!

keep us informed of any developments :)
 
Sorry I missed this post

Still on pause at the mo (house move in progress <still>)...living out of carboad boxes too (apart from the PC ...lol)

Ive mainly been mulling over a crank angle sensor mod to use for the RPM sensor since the coil method seems to be noisy (electrically)

will post an update when done

cheers
 
Drum roll:

This morning I dropped the 'Nossan-to-be' off at my local tubular-work specialist...

Fingers crossed....., tomorrow I should be able to post a couple of piccies of the results

W.T.S
 
Meanwhile (Back in the jungle the K10 was in serious need of a new eshaust!!)

Wupse me' hand slipped......

..This should last a bit longer than the galvanised & cast PAP!

Very quiet system..lovely infact.(dont want to agnoy the neighbors or atract any attention now do we?)

Complete with two flanges for those quick change (Straight through pipe) pit-stop moments..LOL


This is the first time Ive had a new SS system....the first 15 minutes of smoke from the pipe lube were monumental


Bog standard pee-shooter on the back.... :D

1.jpg


Spot the flange :D

2.jpg


Quiet box tucked up nice and high :D

3.jpg


Enter the manifold :D

4.jpg


C/W flexi :D

5.jpg


out to 2 (side) :D

6.jpg


out to 2 (front) :D

7.jpg


out to 4 :D

8.jpg


Bobs your uncle yum yum :D

9.jpg
 
Thats very nice but I do have a question! Why is the 2 into 1 collector on cyl 1-2 and 3-4. The firing order of the MA10 suggests like the K11 they should be 1-4 and 2-3.
 
Not necessary fordy. I have a turbo MUCH closer than that to the bonnet and heat is not an issue, even though it gets very hot.
 
Hi again Ed.

I knew I could rely on you (LOL after all I have gleaned about you over the last few years; I took the liberty of betting myself an extra swig of Tenants-Super that you would be the first to highlight this)

Yes, MA10 Firing order is 1 - 3 - 4 - 2 & so 1-4 and 2-3 is of course the theoretical/expected optimum manifold coupling configuration (AGREED) <Maximum equally shared time for expanding gasses to expand then cool, then contract etc> OLD HAT STUFF for the techies amongst us

But my conclusion was that considering all the physics parameters for manifold design........ the difference between 4-2-1 tubular (of any configuration) compared with the OEM Cast manifold, has to be HUGELY MORE SIGNIFFICANT than the difference between “4-2-1 config A” compared with “4-2-1 config B” (considering the length of each tube section compared with the cylinder capacity…and variable rates of expansion and all).

->Side Note: Its difficult to explain, but try to model a heat-wrapped manifold (any type) compared with a non-wrapped one…how does this effect the synchronisation of each of the independently thermodynamic wave fronts meeting at each of the manifold collectors?<- My brain is fried here too…lol

Given that we all only live once (depending on your religion) and being an artistic and fate-driven kind of guy: I decided to leave the final decision of coupling configuration up to the tubular dudes (without influencing or discussing this with them at all one way or the other).... and as luck might have it; the result was the converse to all of the other 4-2-1's documented on this forum...Hmmmm? (Intrigued I think)

My suspicion is that my configuration is just more mechanically / manufacturability friendly (cheaper & easier) than the alternative (more acute joining angles or more pipe bends to allow more obtuse collector join angles?)

Wait…May be I’m talking crap (would be no surprise…lol)

I would be more than happy to offer up (lend) my manifold (1-2 and 3-4) for a Rolling Road direct comparison against the more popular (1-4 and 2-3) configuration (Donated by someone else) on any independent test car (no silencers….just an orifice on a flange maybe) so that we can document what the differences are between these two configurations on a K10

Hell, I just wrote a whole side of A4 (Sorry)


and in the mean time more posts have come in :-S
 
Ok fair point, it was simply ease of install then. Personally had it been me with all that effort I would have gone normal 4-2-1. or just a 4-1, as its not that much more work.

Have you actually done tests with heat wrap? I would suggest that the pressure waves would not be that affected by the heat wrap. Not to any great degree anyway.
 
No heat wrap tests done.... Im just starting out really.

Its a bummer, I dont have acces to all the gear / other interested people.

But my offer stands though, if anyone fancys a blast, it would be quite interesting (if somone has the gear) I reccon (unless ofcourse it turns out that Ive missed out on 5BHP that is ...HAHAH)
PMSL
 
Cheers Speedle

Here's an 'aside' for those who work better with pictures rather than text

I won't commentate what I was trying to show with this diagram...I thought it would be better to leave it open for interpretation

manifolds.jpg


I do have one prediction however:

There have been a few discussions about the differences (pros & cons) of
4 - 1 versus the popular symmetrical intermediate 4 -2 -1 config.

My bet is that if each of the three custom manifolds were tested fairly against each other on a rolling road...the Asymmetrical one (the one that I have on the NOSsan) will be a trade off somewhere between a 4-1 and the Symmetrical 4-2-1

(Dont forget guys...if anyone has the resource and passion to do this kind of comparison, then I will be happy to "donate my fold"...lol to the cause for the tests)
 
I've been doing a bit of research into this stuff, from what I understand, 4-2-1 manifolds, especially non-sequentially paired ones, give a wider spread of torque than a similar 4-1 system - although creating less peak power and at a lower rpm making it better for street use and driveability.
Any idea how long the pipes are and also their diameters?
Cheers
 
Hey Craig, I was ready to PM you!....

Not off the top of my head..but of course I will get the verneier out and let you (and all) know....

Bare with me on this one though as I have a chocker weekend ahead (W.T.S.)

Oh also I've kept the Cast manifold and old gaskets and front pipe as you previously requested for your tinkering....the only bummer is that the front pipe sheared at the swelling (where the cat is on other K10s).... thease are ready for you to grab at our/ your convenience.

Will the front pipe be of any use still?

Are you going to JAE 2007?
 
Good stuff :)

I will be at JAE, it is all interesting stuff to me, you reckon that all the nitrous will be done and working (fingers crossed)?
 
There's a very slim chance that it will... but that is dependant on successfull fuel tests (still waiting for parts in the post to do this)...

If the fuel tests are no good then fuel sysyem upgrade is the only way and this will take me a while....

..also my much awaited house-move is still holding us in limbo so I'm ready to pause the project again at any time :-(
 
Craig said:
I've been doing a bit of research into this stuff, from what I understand, 4-2-1 manifolds, especially non-sequentially paired ones, give a wider spread of torque than a similar 4-1 system - although creating less peak power and at a lower rpm making it better for street use and driveability.
Any idea how long the pipes are and also their diameters?
Cheers
Click to expand...

I just read some stuff online to further educate myself...and what I read was what you said (rymes) have you been poking your nose here:

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=50

?

Got carried away with replacing the manifild gasket this evening..(the old reused one was farting)....I did remember to get your measurements though...

Type: 1-2 3-4 sequential, stepped.
Radix: Imperial

Primarys (all 4 are equal):
(outside diameter): 1.5 inches
(section length not including Y and head flange) 12 inches

Secondaries (both are equal):
(outside diameter): 1.5 inches
(section length not including Y and head flange) 12 inches

Manifold collector diameter: 1.75 inches

System Diameter 1.75 inches

My Customer Design Specification to the manufacturer:
1) Full system with 4-2-1 M/F
2) Suited to both MA10 & MA12 engines
3) Infrequent / ocational nitrous injection +25 to +50 bhp
4) VERY quiet please
5) no crome or bling poking out the back (standard pea-shooter please)
6) Car ground clearance has been reduced by 46mm (-35mm suspension & -8mm wheel & tyre combo) so please tuck it up nice and high

Price including VAT £690

Manufacturer:
Advanced Automotive Systems Ltd
http://www.aas-exhausts.co.uk/
 
nice exhaust you have there sammo, should help a treat :)

like you say the 4-2-1 shouldnt have that much detriment i'd hope. My other car has 1 and 4 and 2 and 3 coupled though.

Keep us posted, keep meaning to check the WON forum but its very rare I get on there :)
 
SammoHung said:
I just read some stuff online to further educate myself...and what I read was what you said (rymes) have you been poking your nose here:

http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=50

?

Got carried away with replacing the manifild gasket this evening..(the old reused one was farting)....I did remember to get your measurements though...

Type: 1-2 3-4 sequential, stepped.
Radix: Imperial

Primarys (all 4 are equal):
(outside diameter): 1.5 inches
(section length not including Y and head flange) 12 inches

Secondaries (both are equal):
(outside diameter): 1.5 inches
(section length not including Y and head flange) 12 inches

Manifold collector diameter: 1.75 inches

System Diameter 1.75 inches

My Customer Design Specification to the manufacturer:
1) Full system with 4-2-1 M/F
2) Suited to both MA10 & MA12 engines
3) Infrequent / ocational nitrous injection +25 to +50 bhp
4) VERY quiet please
5) no crome or bling poking out the back (standard pea-shooter please)
6) Car ground clearance has been reduced by 46mm (-35mm suspension & -8mm wheel & tyre combo) so please tuck it up nice and high

Price including VAT £690

Manufacturer:
Advanced Automotive Systems Ltd
http://www.aas-exhausts.co.uk/
Click to expand...


That's spot on mate, I'll ahve a read of it after football, don't suppose you got any of that gasket left or was it trash?

Hadn't seen that article, but have been perusing team integ. for a while, MD's tech section is very informative.
Cheers Craig
 
Ed said:
Thats very nice but I do have a question! Why is the 2 into 1 collector on cyl 1-2 and 3-4. The firing order of the MA10 suggests like the K11 they should be 1-4 and 2-3.
Click to expand...

thats the only thing i can see thats wrong with that manifold..ed
 
bobsp16 said:
thats the only thing i can see thats wrong with that manifold..ed
Click to expand...

Bob, It's not 'wrong' .......:

each of the three types of 4-2-1:
* 1&4 and 2&3 (non-sequentially paired) <Like Bobs'>
* 1&2 and 3&4 (sequentially paired) <Like Sammos'>
* 1&3 and 2&4 (sequentially paired) <I Haven't seen one of these on MSC yet>

.....are all perfectly 'right' but they each have their own pro's & con's.

in other words: in certain respects the 1&4 and 2&3 has advantages over the 1&2 and 3&4 but in other respects, the 1&2 and 3&4 has advantages over the 1&4 and 2&3
 
I must admit I dont see any benefit to having a manifold in this configuration. It would actively impead performance if you were to add more wild cams with a larger overlap. You end up with a situaton where at the end of the exhaust stroke cyl no2 is likely to have been slightly pressurised by no1, and 4 will pressurise number 3. The aim of equally timed extractors is to time the leaving pulse from a cyl to coincide with the overlap duration of the intake on the next intake on the respective manfild thus the negative pressure wave will actually suck air/fuel into that cyl, during overlap. Get it right and you will achieve 100%+ vme. (for those who done know you could make your 988cc engine appear for example as a 1037cc (In reality a stock MA series engine has a very poor vme at high rpm hence its terrible power). Sadly this will never happen on the layout above.
 
Ed said:
I must admit I dont see any benefit to having a manifold in this configuration.
Click to expand...

Here’s a few Benefits for the pot:
1. Fits into a smaller engine space (crossing over of pipe work is not neded)
2. Balanced collector angles compared with 1&4 with 2&3 (easier to manufacture and would be lower cost to mass produce)
3. Straighter pipe work throughout (aids flow)
4. Aesthetics are better IMO (for those who are into looks and stuff <not me might I add..LOL>)


Ed said:
It would actively impead performance if you were to add more wild cams with a larger overlap. You end up with a situaton where at the end of the exhaust stroke cyl no2 is likely to have been slightly pressurised by no1, and 4 will pressurise number 3.
Click to expand...

Oh, you've just given me a thought.....cams optimised for sequentially paired header systems...hmmm

Ed said:
The aim of equally timed extractors is to time the leaving pulse from a cyl to coincide with the overlap duration of the intake on the next intake on the respective manfild thus the negative pressure wave will actually suck air/fuel into that cyl, during overlap. Get it right and you will achieve 100%+ vme.
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s cool, but sequentially paired manifolds *aren't supposed to be* 'equally timed extractors'...the idea with these (from what I've read) is that, the higher pressure compression wave that we are talking about is followed by a comparably deeper rarefaction equally spaced between the higher pressure pulses (the diagrams earlier in this thread help show this)....this offers a higher potential for tuning in the middle and rear section of the exhaust system

Its the same amount of energy, but its dissipated in a different way.
...A bit like the 'big bang' engines that were used for motorcycle racing a while back (they were VERY un-equal but that were used to overcome certain disadvantages of traditional 180 degree fours)

Ed said:
(for those who done know you could make your 988cc engine appear for example as a 1037cc (In reality a stock MA series engine has a very poor vme at high rpm hence its terrible power).
Click to expand...

yeiks!!! I hope to hell the Nitrous project will yield something more significant than 1037cc (HOPE HOPE HOPE PRAY)...lol

Ed said:
Sadly this will never happen on the layout above.
Click to expand...

NEVER?...I’m still happy to lend my manifold out to do a direct comparison measurement against a 1&4, 2&3 if anyone has the facilities (swap the manifolds on the same test-bed after each test)


I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to DIS the 1&4, 2&3 coz I'm definitely NOT...I am happy that this config has advantages in some areas over the 1&2, 3&4

For anyone who is considering getting a tubular manifold...dont get too stressed over it...any of the above (and 4 into 1's too) will cane the stock cast iron job
 
My thoughts:

1. Fits into a smaller engine space (crossing over of pipe work is not neded)
2. Balanced collector angles compared with 1&4 with 2&3 (easier to manufacture and would be lower cost to mass produce)
Click to expand...

Piratically little benefit there is plenty of room :)

3. Straighter pipe work throughout (aids flow)
Click to expand...

Not really there is very little difference between the pipe runs of either.

4. Aesthetics are better IMO (for those who are into looks and stuff <not me might I add..LOL>)
Click to expand...

Personally I think I would probably think it looked odd!

Oh, you've just given me a thought.....cams optimised for sequentially paired header systems...hmmm
Click to expand...

Not possible a complete combustion cycle happens over 720deg, the trouble with your layout is that rather than have each of the 4-2 part of the system take equal timing of 360 deg between cycles, you have a 180-540 deg imbalance. To get the tuning right is near on impossible.

yeiks!!! I hope to hell the Nitrous project will yield something more significant than 1037cc (HOPE HOPE HOPE PRAY)...lol
Click to expand...

Nitrous doesn't make an engine breathe better, its just a way of getting more oxygen in the engine which as a result you can get more power by adding more fuel (but you know that anyway).

Please don't take my view as negative it just goes against all proven methods of performance exhaust design! (again imo)
 
->"Personally I think I would probably think it looked odd!"
hehe..beuty is in the eye of the beholder

Oh, Its no problem chaps...

I wasnt meaning to be argumentative by any means; I was just trying to abstract the 'concepts' from the 'specifics' of the K10 and wild cams etc...but nevermind...I suppose text is a tough media to get a point across at the best of times

..LOL -> I've ran out of spiel anyays (thank the lord) HAAHA

I'd still be hapy to donate some manifold time for anyone who may be motivated to do these measurements

I would be interesting to see where the torque and power differences really are between all of these header variants (asside from the discussions)
 

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