Micra K11 CG10DE -98 takes long to start

[ka00z]

Hey all,


I have a question regarding the car in the topic. It takes 5-8 seconds for the engine to fire/start when cold or hot or somewhere in between. If you fire it right after a previous ride (5-10mins max) it starts immediately.

I do not have checked the fuel pressure or any valves (IAV etc.) What would you guys suspect the problem to be? I think the idle is a bit low / rough as well but not too noticeably.

Would You suspect fuel pressure issue, leaking injector or any other (fuses, relays)? The -98 model is with the distributor dizzy, not direct spark.

Otherwise the car is really fun beater as a daily, along with Skyline


Thanks in advance!

 

[George k11]

The major suspect in my opinion is

Your Throttle need re soldering.
Coolant temperature sensor
Oxygen Sensor
Injectors cleaning


I had the same problem and with the re soldering works fine !!!

Cheers

 

[ka00z]

So the throttlebody issue is also CG10 problem, not CG13? I could do the soldering while servicing the car on the weekend (oil, sparks, filters - the usual stuff)

I did check from the OBD-diagnostics (using Torque) and did not find any problematic values with Oxygen sensor/Lambda. I have to check what's the coolant sensor showing, because not remembering what it was.

My primary suspect still is fuel regulator and/or non-return valve that keeps leaking somewhere.

 

[George k11]

Good Luck Then

 

[Josh_MR]

Nothing to do with ya question...buttt....dont suppose you could show a picture of the skyline could ya?

 

[ka00z]

Hi! I only have few crappy pictures on phone but here we go

 

[pollyp]

Ignition strength
remove the dizzy cap and wirebrush the white oxide off the 4 points till bare metal to restore spark strength, this affects cold start firing.
check spark gap is 1.1mm

Fuel supply
the fuel supply is a sealed closed loop system. meaning when the pumps off and pressure is zero, the pressure regulator valve inbetween the supply side and return line side normally seals shut acting as the non-return valve, all the injectors closed and so the liquid fuel remains stationary in the rails ready for next time.

during first cold starts, if you immediately turn on IGN and begin starting but it takes afew secs to fire up, there could be air in the fuel rail overnight.
on the next cold starting to reset the scenario, hold IGN for 4 sec to allow pump to purge & prime the system first. if it now fires up fine, the air in the rail could be the issue.

if the injectors are non fully closed/sealed due to debris/wear/weak spring/leaking o-rings, air can slowly creep past into the rails overnight as gravity pulls the liquid fuel downwards back into the tank, therefore resulting in an air gap.

 

[Josh_MR]

beautiful! thank youu!

 

[ka00z]

Ignition strength
remove the dizzy cap and wirebrush the white oxide off the 4 points till bare metal to restore spark strength, this affects cold start firing.
check spark gap is 1.1mm

Fuel supply
the fuel supply is a sealed closed loop system. meaning when the pumps off and pressure is zero, the pressure regulator valve inbetween the supply side and return line side normally seals shut acting as the non-return valve, all the injectors closed and so the liquid fuel remains stationary in the rails ready for next time.

during first cold starts, if you immediately turn on IGN and begin starting but it takes afew secs to fire up, there could be air in the fuel rail overnight.
on the next cold starting to reset the scenario, hold IGN for 4 sec to allow pump to purge & prime the system first. if it now fires up fine, the air in the rail could be the issue.

if the injectors are non fully closed/sealed due to debris/wear/weak spring/leaking o-rings, air can slowly creep past into the rails overnight as gravity pulls the liquid fuel downwards back into the tank, therefore resulting in an air gap.

Thanks for advice. My symptoms only seem to happen when the car has been driven 1-3 hour earlier. Meaning the engine has not fully cooled. When starting after a night, the engine starts in less than a second. I tried the 4-6 sec IGN on without help when the engine is not fully cooled down. It stills takes at least 3 secs to fire up. It'd be logical the engine fires better when cold as it runs rich on first start. I will take the advice and check the temp sensor, fuel lines while I do the maintenance. I googled for the symptoms of throttle body failure, but they do not exactly match to mine. I do not have any hesitation, its' not stalling and I think all of the all-mighty 40 kilowatts are present and the fuel consumption is just hilariously low.

edit: Forgot to mention: Yeah you are correct, as a part of the maintenance the ignition / spark should also be checked, will do. Thanks for the tip! Is the spark actually so effective you can go 1.1mm gap? On many coilpack-models normal gap is 0.6 or 0.7. Going with the 1.1mm NGK's then as do not have not too good experience on running Bosch sparks on JDMs.

BTW, are the CG-engine injectors top or side-feed? In the long run I could upgrade them as I bought bigger set of injectors for RB25DET. Have to do some research on how to remap the K11, for R33 Nistune works just fine


I've had CG13DE Micra with the throttle body failure before and CGA3DE direct-injection, but they did not share any of these symptoms either. Perfectly little buggers for daily commuting

 

[ka00z]

beautiful! thank youu!

Thanks, it's almost plain stock (pod filter, 3" stainless steel exhaust, Clutchmasters FX clutch and plate and HKS dump-valve ) and do not have big plans. Just eliminated the dual-stage boost (0.8 all the way, not restricted to 0.5 until rev hits 5500rpm) and considering new coilovers and set of deep dish 9.5x18 ET15 and 10.5x18 ET0-5 wheels for next season. For local legislation (Finland) had to change the headlights from RHD to LHD and such. How ever I could drive triple the mileage with K11 comparing to it

Won't drive it during winter (only driven during summer, imported 2010 from Japan) as the body is somewhat in excellent condition --> no rust. And in Finland it's a bit chilly during Jan-March, but at least I have something to work on during the winter. It has 115k kms on the clock (approx 71k ml?). Series 1 so no ABS or airbags either.

 

[Josh_MR]

Thanks, it's almost plain stock (pod filter, 3" stainless steel exhaust, Clutchmasters FX clutch and plate and HKS dump-valve ) and do not have big plans. Just eliminated the dual-stage boost (0.8 all the way, not restricted to 0.5 until rev hits 5500rpm) and considering new coilovers and set of deep dish 9.5x18 ET15 and 10.5x18 ET0-5 wheels for next season. For local legislation (Finland) had to change the headlights from RHD to LHD and such. How ever I could drive triple the mileage with K11 comparing to it

Won't drive it during winter (only driven during summer, imported 2010 from Japan) as the body is somewhat in excellent condition --> no rust. And in Finland it's a bit chilly during Jan-March, but at least I have something to work on during the winter. It has 115k kms on the clock (approx 71k ml?). Series 1 so no ABS or airbags either.

Oooh sounds good! your a man after my own heart i hope my garage looks like yours in a few years

 

[ka00z]

Oooh sounds good! your a man after my own heart i hope my garage looks like yours in a few years

Hi! There's still a lot of reasonable priced JDM toys available in Japan, if you are looking for a hobby / summer car. Although the parts are still easy to get, the delivery time is longer than for a K11. That's basically why I don't recommend it for daily beater. The cars in Japan are all sold by auction and sometimes you can get really lucky in terms of spending just pennies. The freight is approx 1000 pounds (1300 euros) for a Skyline sized car from Jpy to Finland. Maybe less for UK? Only problem I'm finding out driving on the right in LHD traffic is the struggle to get into parking halls Unless I go in by reverse, lol.




Proceeded with the diagnosis:

Brushed the corrosion surface from the dizzy, did new filters and oil. Also tried the "stick the fuel pump fuse out" and it did not help. I also checked the sparks and they were not wet, so I doubt it's flooding. I'm suspecting still too little fuel pressure or faulty temp sensor. There's one temp sensor for dash and one for ecu if I'm right?


I'm not completely sure if 98 still has the waxstat, but will overhaul the MAF and IACV during weekend and remove the waxstat if it exists. You guys talk about not having the waxstat in facelift, but the first facelift came in 98 and second 00? Or do you refer to the coil-pack engine from 00? =)


And in advance, I've read through a alot of instructions from this site. It's been great help in diagnosis and therefore I'd like to say thanks.

 

[Agent_Sm1th]

Its the second facelift(00-03 coilpack) that doesn't have the waxstat. Here are the values to check your engine temp sensor.

 

[ka00z]

Thanks! I'll check the pressure at same time. It's not the spark that is causing it at least.

 

[Josh_MR]

Hi! There's still a lot of reasonable priced JDM toys available in Japan, if you are looking for a hobby / summer car. Although the parts are still easy to get, the delivery time is longer than for a K11. That's basically why I don't recommend it for daily beater. The cars in Japan are all sold by auction and sometimes you can get really lucky in terms of spending just pennies. The freight is approx 1000 pounds (1300 euros) for a Skyline sized car from Jpy to Finland. Maybe less for UK? Only problem I'm finding out driving on the right in LHD traffic is the struggle to get into parking halls Unless I go in by reverse, lol.

Hmmm, I've still got a couple of years before I can start bidding on auctions i reckon, hahaa least I shouldn't have a rhd problem

 

[ka00z]

Its the second facelift(00-03 coilpack) that doesn't have the waxstat. Here are the values to check your engine temp sensor.

Again thanks for this. I removed the dizzy and tried to examine if it's still good or not. But the real problem was the temperature sensor, but not solely the sender unit. The wiring was stripped underneath the dizzy thus giving wrong information to ecu. Will do the rewiring possibly next week, weekend is reserved for fmic install on R33 =)

Again thanks! It was totally reasonable where the fault was, but it took a while to figure out! At same go, threw in new power steering oils (atf), sparks, oil + filters. Could possibly still do new coolant while I'm at it.

 

[yuri1312]

Hi mates,

I've been having a similar issue on my 96 CG10.
Starts fine when cold (overnight), starts fine if cranked a few seconds after stopping. takes about 5 to 6 seconds to start when left off for a few minutes / hours. Helps if I feather the gas pedal when starting.

Things I've already checked:

Lambda sensor - was replaced - unburnt fuel smell I was getting before in the engine bay after a few kms highway driving has disappeared after that (and hopefully fuel economy will improve).

coolant temperature sensor -> didn't do a resistance test on it, but checked the values reported to the ECU (via consult plug) during hard warm start mentioned above - seem normal, no spikes or weird values.

throttle body - was replaced about a year and 1/2 ago with one from the GA15DE (brand new, not from scrappy), so should be in fully working order right?

spark plugs, leads -> are new, NGK OEM spec.

dizzy cap -> was replaced (fixed cold damp start issues I was having in rainy days). Unable to replace rotor due to stripped screw


So, anything else I'm missing, besides having the injectors checked?
Can it be something with the dizzy itself (heard of some jap cars having oil seeping into the dizzy, however, didn't seem to find any inside when I replaced the cap)? Should I do a resistance check of the coolant temperature sensor outside the engine, and not trust the values reported by the ECU? Could the solder points in the throttle be crapped out after such a short period of time?

Thanks!