MA12 Tuning

Mark

Ex. Club Member
OK so being one of the first (aint too sure) I am going to be tuning my MA12 Engine in my super S tomorrow, well starting, I've ordered a Piper Cam and I have a spare head which I am going to be porting also. should be expecting 10-30bhp increase from the standard 60 hopefully coupled together with my full powerflow system, weber carb and induction kit. am gonna be gettin the car on the rolling road at Pro-Tune in Sieghford end of next week also.

I've got the 1.0 cam I had re-profiled and its quite aggressive which is gonna be fun. will be posting pictures and graphs of my progress to having the fastest naturally aspirated MA12 powered K10 within the club and proving it at the pod this year also with a 17 second quarter mile hopefully if things go to plan.
 
i bored my block mate to accept the bigger (only by.2mm) pistons.
along with the inlet and outlet honed. and trust me just doing this and setting the timing up precisely made massive difference. one thing i regret is not having it dynoed.

ubut ask dan etc what that engine was like when it wasnt blowing manifolds all the time.
as it wqas cracking the manifold for some reason. blew about 7 all in, throughout the time period!!
 
did you not change the cam also?

we are gonna be port matching the manifolds also. not gonna be changing pistons or anything like that, as for exhaust manifold i can get a 4-2-1 made for 200 quid which i might do after this work is done first.

am gettin flywheel lightened too
 
quickdraw said:
i bored my head mate to accept the bigger (only by.2mm) pistons.
along witht he inlet and outlet honed. and trust me just doing this and setting the timing up precisely mnade massive difference. one thing i regret is not having it dynoed.

Bored the head for bigger pistons? Honed the inlet and outlet? What? Neither of them really make any sense.
 
andrew i have no time for you

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mark, no i never changed the cams mate. i was in the middle of edapting a k11 janspeed manifold to fit the k10 as the ports were pretty much similar.

at the time i didnt think the cams would do that much of a difference without first sorting out getting the air in and out. the 2 major issues with the ma series engine.

thus why i had started to sort th exhaust manifold
next step was to look at thgge inlet manifold as i was gonna custom build my own rx7 inlet manifold obviously without the injector ports.
this done i was then going to look at the SC for the opposite end of the inlet from the filter

speak to howard (slim) as i believe he still has a set of the uprated pistons.

honestly mate sort out inlet and exhaust manifolds first, this would be the best thing you can do. as these are the most restrictive on the ma engines
 
Wayne, Andrew is not having ago at you just what you said is simply either never done, not even possible or would never work. Perhaps you dont mean what you write, but you dont horn the inlet and outlet you may only flow them, you only ever hone the bores. You also dont bore a head to take bigger pistons, you must mean the block, you may however increase the volume of the head to affect the combusion chamber shape/size.
As I said it may just be you not meaning exactly what you write, but really these terms should only be used as they are ment or it will confuse those trying to learn from your posts.
 
Dean said:
what happened to this engine in the end then wayne??


smashed centrel release bearings mate!!
engine is fine. but i installed the ga16 in its place since it was going to be off road to get work done. and since i have other cars to drive i simply started the ga16 conversion earlier than i wished.

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paul_k10_Lx said:
wots the best way to go on the inlet side as im lookin at doin bits to mine pretty soon.

there is no definate way. what you need to do though is ultimatly get better airflow into the block. and since it has not been done yet. everything will be testing. thus why i was going to tewst the rx7 inlet conversion
 
oh and ED your saying inlet and outlet cant be EXtrude honed ?

research this mate as you will find it DID and does happen.

all the cylinder head ports were honed and polished,
and all passage ways honed. this including the inlet and exhaust,.

ANY thing that air moves through it, it can be honed.
 
That is not what you said. Honing and extrue honing are totally different things. As I said you have to be specific or no one has a clue what your talking about.

Paul if you want more power you need to get in more fuel and air. Basically the whole inlet manifold is a place to start. I have had a set of CBR 600 bike carbs running on a MA10 and MA12 though tbh they are not large enough, and I suspect that 750 bike carbs would be alot better. You can deal with the exhaust after, as the inlet is a major restriction, infact you get a vacume from memory of around -200mmHg which is simply an amazing inlet restriction and so by freeing this up alot of power can be gained, providing you fuel it correctly which will be around 12.5:1.

Ed
 
The bike carbs on the MA12 seem to have improved low end torque, but they can't provide enough fuel above 5000rpm, so the mixture leans out and you get misfire (which is clearly bad). The fact that you've gone from one choke to four of similar size, as well as the improved design of carb, means you can only really gain from this.

They are off a CBR600 which is a 600cc bike with a 12krpm redline. That's half the engine size for twice the rpm, so they should flow the right amount of fuel in theory, but I think effects to do with the air velocity and frequency of the pulses makes them misbehave. You can have them rejetted and fixed, but there are 3 jets and 1 needle per carb, so it would be expensive and very time consuming.

A 750cc or even bigger bike's carbs would probably solve the problem, but the engine they are on at the moment has a serious headgasket issue anyway, so it's something for another time. To be honest though, I think the reason that the bike carbs thing happened is cost - it's a dirt cheap mod.

Quickdraw, the reason I often seem to question what you say is because you are so often very imprecise with your language, so it's hard to tell what is going on. "Extrude Hone" is a trademark for abrasive flow machining, and a lot of machinists will dispute that it is honing. You hone the cylinder bore, or you hone a cutting edge. And boring out the head makes no sense.

Extrude honing is pretty expensive, and normally reserved for heads where it is difficult to get to places, such as engines with very long runners, or ones that aren't crossflowed. It also requires that the valve guides are removed, and that the valve seats are recut, which makes the whole job a lot more expensive than something like basic port matching.

Boring out the block for a 7cc gain (less than 0.5%) will gain you a lot less than 0.5% power. The reasoning you would bore out a block by that small an amount is to fit different pistons which will increase compression ratio, or be uprated to deal with higher RPM. I don't think there are any commonly available or reasonably priced replacement pistons for the MA series. I think, if you wanted to increase compression ratio, a significant gain could be made by skimming the head and using a thinner head gasket, valve to piston clearance allowing. It's all expensive work though.

I'm of the opinion that if you want much more power in a K10, put a more powerful 16v fuel injected engine in. You can easily spend over £1k on basic engine mods on the MA12 and end up with the same amount of power as CG13 with an induction kit and exhaust system. And at the end of it all, you'd have an engine on the verge of distruction all the time.
 
andrew said:
Quickdraw, the reason I often seem to question what you say is because you are so often very imprecise with your language

well word your responses better and i wont takle them offensive. untill then i will take them as such
 
quicky i aint gonna be sorting the inlet and exhaust manifolds as i dont have the money for that,

the cam is costing me 100 quid and flywheel 60 quid, the porting is going to be done for nothing so for the money its as far as i'm gonna go.

will be posting results soon
 
my dad is an engineer and he is going to be doing it,

- i should be getting my flywheel back on wednesday and it'll be all lightened and balanced.

- as for the cam I only have a spare MA10 cam which the lobes are not as big as the MA12 ones so am gonna locate a 1.2 cam tomorrow and take it to get re-profiled
 
Let us know how it goes, but I would say if you could afford it then definitely get custom inlet and outlet manifolds made up. These, along with the carbs cause alot of restriction on the MA series engine and greater airflow should see alot more power. With the MA10 in mine, there was an increase if 10BHP, and that was with manifold, K&N and zorst. If I had a custom inlet manifold made up I'm sure this would increase greatly, but I don't have the money to do it at the moment either. :) Keep us updated though.
 
The ECC only controls the choke as far as I know, so nothing really. Have a look at Eds thread to see what he did with the carbs and what needed changing altering etc.
 
ECC stuff is a nightmare it controls a lot more than the idle lol,

I could get custom inlet and out manifolds but just dont have the money for it at the moment.

but car will be rolling roaded in the next week or two so we shall see the results then.

I am looking for 80bhp+

disagree if you want and tell me it aint gonna happen but we'll just have to wait and see
 
something like that yeah.

anyway this thread aint to do with the ECC crap!

its about me tuning my MA12
 
Mark I warned you not to be rude to other members on the site. As for ECC. LEAVE IT ON THE CAR, you have many more future options if this is left on. I could quite easily make a carb/injection hybrid turbo conversion with the ECC fitted to the super S. With real mapped ignition and boost retard.

Ed
 
Mark, make sure you get teh head skimmed before you put it back on, nd make sure you put it back on properly too, follwing correct procedure, and also, don't go thrashing it straight awat, give it a good 500 miles of gentles driving before you use the power, and another 500 before you give it a thrashing. Also, provisionly set teh tappets at .25 all round when the engoine before you fire it up, then ..25 inlet and .30 exhaust when its all nice and hot.
 
Yeah no worries slim I'll run it in before givin it some proper right foot! lol,

Right I got my lightened and balanced flywheel back today, I didnt weigh it before i took it to a local tuning company but i have weighed it on my bathroom scales which arnt the most accurate and its about 3.3KG. it looks brand new now and i felt the difference soon as i picked it up,

looks like my ma12 will be revy now like a ma10.

Slim have you got a 1.2 cam? i took my ma10 cam that i had and they said the ma12 cam is better to re-profile as it has a slightly higher lift.

The tuning company I'm dealing with are going to contact a guy who uses them also who has a micra, but he uses his for grass/stock racing and his one they said is quite powerful so hopefully will get some info back soon as.

I am also looking into using a twin choke weber carb off something like an xr3 or simular to use instead of my single choke weber.
 
And both are twin choke, but they open progessively, so it isn't like having two carbs, like on a twin barrel Weber.
 
Got the lightened and balanced flywheel in the car now,

revs quicker now and is still smooth on idle.

Its a bit quicker accelerating too :)
 
yes, i'm surprised thats its still nice and smooth. It certainly felt a little zippier, but you can still feel the festriction woith the standard manufolds and cam.
 
will be posting pictures up monday of the progress with my super S,

guess to what i'm having done? should be pretty obvious,

should add a good 5bhp and more torque easy,

am definatly gonna be in the 17's at the pod in august
 
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/mark_love/f1e02b90.jpg

28eac3b9.jpg


cc08e4f6.jpg


anyone want one made for there micra there £200 from

UNIQUE EXHAUSTS - stafford, staffordshire - 01785 215111

Exhaust sound has changed and sounds a lot nicer, can feel the power increase on the whole of the rev range, I think its gonna be running lean now so tomorrow am gonna get some bigger jets for my carb,

next up is the piper cam!


Mark.
 
got a bigger main jet for my carb and have come to a problem which i hope someone on here might help me with?

The standard main jet on my carb is 125, I got a 140 and fitted it in and it runs fine etc but the car pulls up to 5000rpm and vibrates a lot, it doesnt go any faster either,

is it over fueling and i need to get either a 130 or 135 jet? or does the timing need adjusting for the more fuel????

also can the air/fuel mixture be adjusted or is it fixed with jet size's??

Thanks

Mark
 
its got no cat, its full stainless, has 2 silencers in it, one in the middle and the backbox.

none of it is standard.
 
so were abouts does it go to. i never said what do you have. i said were doe the manifold go back to. IE were is the flange located. :glare:
 
it goes into one just past the engine, it hasnt got a flange on it. its got a small flexi pipe but is welded to the whole system
 
even with me putting the standard 125 jet back in the carb, the engine vibrates a lot after 5000rpm, could this be down to the ignition timing?

and my clutch sounds like its grinding and its gettin louder :(

who else on here has a 4-2-1 manifold? i think it was kev's old car wasnt it?

did you have to get it rolling roaded after having the manifold? kev?

Mark..
 
My opinion on this is you have other problems not directly related to the manfold.

Ed
 
Manifold shouldn't be the source of your problems and the power gains from it on the R/R was 5bhp.

Kev
 
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