London Ultra Low Emissions Zone ULEZ

Hi all


ULEZ affects all cars which don't reach EURO4 standard, introduced around 2006. If your car is older, from April 19 you have to pay the surcharge 24/7 in the Congestion Zone, and from October 2021, 24/7 in all of London between the north and south circular roads. This means scrapping or selling to someone outside London.

BUT according to
http://www.emissionsfinder.com/nissan-micra-k11-series-10-3-5-door-10cc
my 2001 micra and many others have such low emission figures:
CO: 0.614g/km THC: 0.064g/km NOx: 0.028g/km
that despite being registered as EURO3
Euro 3 emissions standards (petrol) CO: 2.3g/km THC: 0.20g/km NOx: 0.15g/km
they pass EURO4
Euro 4 emissions standards (petrol) CO: 1.0g/km THC: 0.10g/km NOx: 0.08g/km.

Transport for London wrote I should make my case for exemption by sending in my registration document,
which MIGHT show the 3 emissions figures - unfortunately it doesn't,
and therefore also a letter from Nissan confirming the 3 figures.

Nissan customer services refuse to send such a letter, but only instead a Certificate of Conformity for £114.
I told Nissan many Nissan owners in the London will want to know they can keep their car, and how great it is Micras have such
low emissions, before regulations required them. So if they could inform TfL which cars (from VIN numbers XXX to YYY) conform,
it would be a bonus for the brand they could even advertise, and save us and TfL a lot of trouble applying for each car individually,
and much expense for those who just don't know about it (obviously here, TfL is not that keen).
"A letter isn't going to happen" - it seems they want to make £114 as many times as possible.

TfL are not interested in live emission figures from a test centre - also it seems MOTs don't measure in the same way.

Does anyone have a better idea?
Or want to join in asking Nissan again?


Cheers Daniel
 
Tbh your fighting a losing game , gpverment, concils, ect don't want older car , same as Nissan doesn't want them on the roads ,think of how many people with k11s use oem spares from Nissan , very little ,unless they could profit from it they won't be interested.
We run Nissan d21 diesels again the government ect don't want them on the road, even know they are very capable of running alternative fuels , veg oil for one
 
Hi all


ULEZ affects all cars which don't reach EURO4 standard, introduced around 2006. If your car is older, from April 19 you have to pay the surcharge 24/7 in the Congestion Zone, and from October 2021, 24/7 in all of London between the north and south circular roads. This means scrapping or selling to someone outside London.

BUT according to
http://www.emissionsfinder.com/nissan-micra-k11-series-10-3-5-door-10cc
my 2001 micra and many others have such low emission figures:
CO: 0.614g/km THC: 0.064g/km NOx: 0.028g/km
that despite being registered as EURO3
Euro 3 emissions standards (petrol) CO: 2.3g/km THC: 0.20g/km NOx: 0.15g/km
they pass EURO4
Euro 4 emissions standards (petrol) CO: 1.0g/km THC: 0.10g/km NOx: 0.08g/km.

Transport for London wrote I should make my case for exemption by sending in my registration document,
which MIGHT show the 3 emissions figures - unfortunately it doesn't,
and therefore also a letter from Nissan confirming the 3 figures.

Nissan customer services refuse to send such a letter, but only instead a Certificate of Conformity for £114.
I told Nissan many Nissan owners in the London will want to know they can keep their car, and how great it is Micras have such
low emissions, before regulations required them. So if they could inform TfL which cars (from VIN numbers XXX to YYY) conform,
it would be a bonus for the brand they could even advertise, and save us and TfL a lot of trouble applying for each car individually,
and much expense for those who just don't know about it (obviously here, TfL is not that keen).
"A letter isn't going to happen" - it seems they want to make £114 as many times as possible.

TfL are not interested in live emission figures from a test centre - also it seems MOTs don't measure in the same way.

Does anyone have a better idea?
Or want to join in asking Nissan again?


Cheers Daniel
Pollution Levels & Old Vehicles

Vehicle exhaust fumes & particulate particles pollution cause multiple health hazard diseases & premature deaths that are a far greater priority to minimise than prolonging the unnecessary polluting use of old vehicles that do not comply with recent European exhaust testing regulations.

People’s health is more important than keeping dirty polluting old bangers that pay higher Road Tax (K11) @ £150 compared to equivalent modern vehicles with zero or £30 road tax?

Quote:More than 40 towns and cities in the UK are at or have exceeded air pollution limits set by the World Health Organization, its new report has found.
The WHO estimates that 30 areas have fine-particle air pollution levels above 10 micrograms per cubic metre, with another 17 at that limit.4 May 2018” :eek:

References; https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Air+pollution+levels+in+London+exceeding+World+health+levels

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-43964341
 
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HI Plmval

Post 2001 K11 DO comply with 2006 European exhaust testing regulations, same as post 2006 cars which are permitted.
Please explain how 2001 K11 fail in your view?

Daniel
 
HI Plmval

Post 2001 K11 DO comply with 2006 European exhaust testing regulations, same as post 2006 cars which are permitted.
Please explain how 2001 K11 fail in your view?

Daniel
I think you've missed that things are about to change
From 8 April 2019 if you travel in the ULEZ you will need to pay the daily ULEZ charge. This is because your vehicle does not meet the ULEZ standards*.
that's the message I got for my 1999 K11 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/vrm-checker-ulez
 
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Hi Plmval

I precisely wrote that things are about to change - please read my message carefully.
As for your K11 1999, it's EURO2 standard, and does indeed NOT pass EURO4.
K11 from 2001 are EURO3, and by chance DO pass EURO4 too.
So do you still think 2001 K11 should not be on the roads?

Daniel
 
The K11 would have been tested & certified in 1992/3 for type approval when introduced & it is unlikely that anyone would pointlessly fund repetition certification for facelifts to subsequent regulations.

Recognised verifiable & audited certification to the required updated Euro 4 standards appears to be required to comply with proposed London ULEZ, as you state.

Additionally the simple comparison with ambiguous unverified published exhaust K11 pollution figures that are unsubstantiated to Euro 4 standards are insufficient as certification of compliance is the standard required.

Quote:
“ULEZ affects all cars which don't reach EURO4 standard, introduced around 2006. If your car is older, from April 19 you have to pay the surcharge 24/7 in the Congestion Zone, and from October 2021, 24/7 in all of London between the north and south circular roads”.

When the new ULEZ rules apply, you will have the option of paying the proposed ULEZ & carbon credits congestion charge or of buying a compliant vehicle, whichever is the most economically viable option for your use requirements.
Good luck.
 
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Hi plmval

Thanks for your answer.
All TfL have asked for is a single figure for NOx, supported by a letter from Nissan homologation department, or a certificate of conformity, to grant me an exemption. I presume however I get the figure from Nissan, it will pass the EURO4 level, even if it's not the same figure as shown on the website I found. If not, that's life.
The figure I found is so far unverified, but why ambiguous?
On what authority are you writing all these things to me,
as if it's not clear from my message that I would know most of them?
Do you still want to persuade me that my old car pollutes too much - on what basis?

As for "pointless repetition certificates", these are definitely required for each engine size, type, and modification, and upgrade to new EURO emission standards. As I wrote, 1999 models had to meet EURO2, but 2001 cars had to meet EURO3, and therefore be designed differently, and tested/certified. Isn't that logical?


Daniel
 
Regulation standard of ULEZ requires independent EURO 4 certified compliant vehicles & not ambiguous counterparty anecdotal hearsay figures from vested interest groups such as the motor industry that you appear to consider viable.

Quote; “All TfL have asked for is a single figure for NOx, supported by a letter from Nissan homologation department, or a certificate of conformity, to grant me an exemption”

Tfl appear to have an option for retrospective EURO 4 compliance testing/certification of non-compliant vehicles where cherry picking by individuals would be unacceptable to administer. After the VW emission’s scandal I rather suspect that any rational administration of vehicle emissions standards & testing is unlikely to consider random motor industry pollution figures with merit.

The spirit of the ULEZ is to limit vehicle pollution to internationally accepted levels to protect health & social societal costs against the vested interests of the free market profit motivated big business & its polluting products. This environmental protection progress is in everyone’s interests, yours, mine & The Garden of Eden, the environment.

Good luck & I look forward with interest to your referenced verifiable evidence to the contrary.
 
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It's most probable that all 2001+ K11 comply with EURO4, before EURO4 was introduced, because of they were designed to produce the right level of NOx. When I get the official figure, I'll let you know. It might even be lower than many other later EURO4 cars.

Everything you have taken the trouble to write at such length has added nothing and seems to be to discourage me and make me feel bad. You continuously imply my car is harming the environment without knowing the facts.

My interest in keeping old cars going - if they meett EURO4 standards - is to save the energy and materials used in building new cars.
You seem to think the car industry wants to keep old cars on the road. They don't - presumably that's
why Nissan want to charge me for the certificate. They want to build new cars, and want the scrappage
awards from the taxpayer to subsidise their profits.

"ambiguous counterparty anecdotal hearsay"
are you a poet?

"figures from vested interest groups such as the motor industry that you appear to consider viable."
I don't consider them viable - I just suspect they are correct. News soon.

By the way, you seem to accept the Nissan certificate of conformity will be true - but that's the motor industry.
The real test would be actual current exhaust tests I mentioned, which presumably many EURO4 cars would fail if they are not maintained properly. But nobody seems interested in them, including you.

No need to answer.
 
You seem to be offended when asked for substantive verifiable data to support your theory.

Thus I rather suspect that when you present Tfl ULEZ compliance engineers with website data & "ambiguous counterparty anecdotal hearsay" letters from Nissan regarding an 18 year old K11 compliance to EURO4, that is in fact EURO3; you may be challenged much intensely than by me or any other technicians on here?

Where is your referenced evidence to support your theory that an 18 year old K11 from 2001 is in fact EURO4 compliant?

Where is the data?
 
Going too be honest,I want to keep micra s and older cars going but for such as ulez, they are targeting older cars regardless of clean or dirty emissions
Europe hates older vehicle , manufacturers unless they can profit from them arnt interested or like their older vehicles generally ,
Same as I got 80s Kawasaki two strokes, again higher ups ect don't want them ,
Also a fyi new nissan are kindA dicks , they are shunning off many of their vehicles with dangerous defect, unsafe from New or just plain crap,
The government want older vehicles off the road, the police target older vehicles (money making) and even the general public don't want some older vehicles (thank Apple and others for the throw away society and ideology of old is bad)
I would genuinely want to go push this forward and show older vehicles arnt all bad as claimed, as I plan on running my 99 micra till I'm unable and same for my other older cars and bikes,
But with ulez, London ect I have doubts sadly
Honest opinion and well reality ,crap as it is and how much I don't want it either
 
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Hi Nissan boy
Yes throwaway is still growing despite environmental awareness.
Sorry, your 1999 K11 will not get a London exemption, but 2001+ cars will, IF the data I found online is correct.
My question is if we all have to pay Nissan £114 to get individual exemptions, or if we can get exemption for the model generally.

As for plmval, I didn't realise you are a technician.
TfL wrote
"If you can provide us with a copy of your vehicle registration document (V5C) that contains the Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) value, we can confirm the compliance status of your vehicle.
If these values are not recorded on the V5c you will need to provide a copy of the vehicle's Conformity Certificate which you can obtain from the vehicle manufacturer.
Alternatively you may wish to contact the vehicle manufacturer's homologation department for a letter signed by a named individual from the homologation department which contains the following information
- vehicle registration mark (VRM)
- vehicle identification number (VIN)
- euro standard the vehicle was manufactured to
- Fuel Type
- Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) value"

Where do you get the idea that any of this is hearsay or will be challenged?
Do you find pressing on people with so many words actually persuades them to change their minds?
Or do you just enjoy sounding like you know so much better?
 
Daniel

I still don’t know where is your relevant data?

Your hypothesis theory is very interesting & has not been proposed on here before.

You originally enquired whether we had any constructive suggestions to assist with this proposition.
Quote: “Does anyone have a better idea”?

The validity & credibility of your data source & how it was derived for compliance to EURO4 needs to be tested & verified in order to be considered by decision maker Tfl compliance engineers.

You’re Reference: http://www.emissionsfinder.com/nissan-micra-k11-series-10-3-5-door-10cc

Your reference above clearly states 2001 K11 Micra = EURO 111, & therefore not recognised as tested to EURO 4?

Where is your relevant EURO 4 data to the contrary?
 
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HI Plmval

You don't seem to take in what I write, or maybe you just don't understand it.
I will get the data from Nissan - either a letter or a certificate.
I could buy the certificate tomorrow - I just don't think it's fair for every owner to pay for it.
So I'm waiting for now.
I presume it will confirm the NOx figure TfL want is within EURO4 norms.
That means it's also within EURO3 norms - do you understand that?
TfL do not want to test and verify anything - they will accept whatever Nissan provide, as they wrote.

It seems you are just making things up to have the last word.
This is my last word.

Daniel
 
Good luck with that after the motor industries recent fraud debacle with lies & its cheat to defeat to fraudulently pass emissions testing? Motor industry is in breach of trust on emissions.
 
DanDan from what I've seen you seem to be on the right track, whether it's euro 3 or 4 compliant is irrelevant it's the NOx figures that are important. Euro 4 only comes up because it specifies a level that passes but it doesn't have to pass euro 4 to pass as you've said (it could fail e4 on CO2 or Hc but still be ULEZ compliant).
The problem is Nissan, you might try going through different dealers or contact points within Nissan hoping for a more cooperative response or press TfL for another way to establish the vehicles emissions.
Here's some youtubes that pretty much confirm your research so far motorcycle related though. Warning: features swearing!
 
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Hi Fuzzy
Good points thanks. (at last someone with something to say)
Nice videos.
I wish I knew the original dealer of my car - DVLA would not tell me - I would ask through them.
Yes, surprising TfL only want the NOx figure, not the rest, and also that they're not interested in live testing.
Would be good to get a micro-owners petition to Nissan...

Dan
 
NOx are the ones that are most dangerous to your health I think. Live smog tests i think are performed differently, probably a good thing because NOx is generally related to lean combustion, so people would run rich for the test.
 
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