K11 - 1litre CG10DE - Tuning properties

J

JamieGti

Guest
I know this sounds completely ludacris, but what are the capabilities of this wee engine?
Can someone please link me to blueprints of it, this would be a major help.
I've got the CG10DE out of a scrapped micra for a different conversion and I'm waiting till after christmas for a sub-frame to be built for the old shell! (I'll blog it later when it's complete)
I can't wait that long and not footer around with something! I want to start playing with the CG10DE as my daily hack is also a K11. The idea is that I build a completely overhauled engine for my daily hack to swap it in when I'm done.
Here's a rough idea of what i want to start with.

- Billet Crank
- Forged Rods
- Forged Pistons
- Re-Bored Block
- Oversized Rings
- Basically a whole forged bottom end with nice clean bored cylinders: Links to prices please?

I don't want to use the 1.3 as the car will loose its 1 litre charm and the challenge of building a fast CG10DE.

I'm not sure about what type of induction i want to use BUT I'm not a big fan of forced induction. Carbs offer little tuning properties so throttle bodies sound like the likely option as I want it to scream when it revs.
I used to work as an engineer so fabricating anything is not a problem as I have a lathe and a large mill!

Any constuctive critisism is welcome. Just don't bomabard me with "You're not experienced enough". "The questions you're asking show you are not experienced" I know they are coming! :laugh:

Tell me what problems I'll come across. Anything you have experienced and of anyone you know that has done something similar.

Thanks, I know I'll get some good feedback!

-Jamie
 
sorry for being a little blunt here

Billet Crank
Forged Rods
Forged Pistons

for these alone your looking at £1000 + for parts only

I'm not a big fan of forced induction.

why?

throttle bodies sound like the likely option as I want it to scream when it revs.

yes, but the only power your going to be getting will be at the very top of the rev range.

if your attempting to build something for a race series, and the car must be a 1000cc then great, however to me it sounds like a road car, and if that is the case it will be useless.

there is little 1.0 charm
 
Billet crank - out the window! Edit: Can get one machined to a "good" standard. (You can't buy one)
Forged Piston and rods - Come cheap (Dad builds race spec bike engines - knows suppliers)
With all that in mind... I can really pick up the revs! Throttle bodies should compliment this really well.
Forced induction - I've played about with turbo's for a while now, mostly large one's. 1.3 starlet with a td04 for example. They don't last very long (blocks) even with the best of cooling and engine components!
Never used large throttle bodies on a small displacement engine before.

It's a challenge more than anything. I am open to suggestions!
I know it wont be cheap.

Thanks for the feedback, more please?

-JGti
 
I think this sounds like fun the 1.0 has lots of charm, however the power will be from about 4500rpm, I have throttlebodies for my k11 1.0l in my garage ready to fit i would go with 1.6 primera injectors a direct swap far better for tuned cars and if you visit DVA power web site there is a guy there who will make you a custom induction (he is the best) this may help. I have some contacts who amybe able to help you for bits i could send you a parts list some crazy stuff in that list email me [email protected].

Oh yeah micratuning.co.uk on its way
 
the cg10de will never be fast, unless u use some sort of forced induction or even nos... but it sounds different. good luck if you bother!
 
I could go turbo if I could be persuaded. I have to say though; I'm getting VERY tired of doing turbo'd Jap cars. I feel they can get way too expensive for parts like custom manifolds, hossing, intercoolers and all the little things that mount up! They torque steer like nothing on earth on a fwd car! It's not really worth it... Let me know what you think anyway! Please!

Thanks again,

-Jamie
 
id say turbo. Your car is going to end up as a high screamer with no power for regular driving which seems pointless. its never going to create massive torque either. A small turbo would see nice power and torque low down and if set up correctly it'll be as reliable as it now.
 
Like i said earlier, It's just a bit of fun for the weekends on the roads. It doesn't have to be a comfortable everyday driver (I'll get a new hack)! Just a bit of "Go-Kart" like physics fun!
I've had turbo cars before, they're alot of work to drive hard! My aim is around 150+hp which seems REALLY high for this engine block but is possible.
I think if i get anymore suggestions on the turbo I might go for it!
Thanks,

-Jamie
 
i reckon 150bhp is possible from a 1.0 but thats going to be alot of money and work.. is it really worth it? Could get a skyline for the amount you want to spend on a micra.

its upto you if you still want to go ahead with it this is what i would do.

Impul fast road cams for a 1.3
gas flowed head, forged internals etc.
SR20 TB modified to fit inlet manifold
forged bottom end
N14 injector upgrade
Full Impul exhaust system
Impul ECU

Get that tuned up running sweet would be nice but extremely expensive!!
 
I'm going Horrificaly expensive on it...
Here it is:
- Forged lighwieght and balanced bottom end (inc . Knived crank)
- Stage 3 cylinder head (just gas flowed is not enough)
- Jenvy TB's running off an emerald ecu
- All the other goodies, s16 fuel pump, custom air box, hi flow manifold, carbon exhaust? (got one lying around), Possibly a 4 coil pack. Might not be worth the gain.
- Gearbox? Need advise!!! <--
- Twin Plate or paddled clutch
- REALLY strong drive shafts

This is just a rough idea... don't slate me for missing things.
Paul's been a terrific help, thanks!
I'll worry about chassis and brakes when it comes to it!

Thanks again,

-Jamie
 
150 is quite a lot. The highest CG13's i have saw N/A are 160ps from mulholland, but i imagine your going a couple of steps further then them (coilpacks and 3 stage head plus bottom end).

gearbox wise, go with a CG13 box. You won't make enough torque to hurt it tbh.
 
after all this you will drive a turbo cg13 and :down: yes it will whoop a NA tuned 1.0

might as well do it properly turbo it!! and do it to a 1.3!!!
 
The works 1.3 litre engine produced around 200bhp so for a 1 litre you could get 140 to 150 bhp. If you are really serious all the power is in the head, you will need titanium valves are these are better at high revs like 9-10k and try to fit the biggest valves possible you will need to get these custom made in america for all the valves you are looking at about £1600. Double valve springs are the next thing. Flow the head and try and get the ports as big as possible. The cam is where you can get most impovement but this will have to be custom made to get the most out of the engine as you will need to find out the max lift and duration you can get possible. In some touring car engines, they machine material out of the head so they can fit bigger cams in. For induction go trottle bodies with injector mounted as far back as possible as this will give you better top end power e.g in the trumpets. As the bottom goes piston are the only thing to worry about as with bigger lift you might need bigger cut outs in the pistons for the valves to clear. For a proper engine u should spent the guts of £12000 to £14000 that before development. The best thing to do is try and get on the kit car head off the 1.3 kit car micra as this way you will save alot of money and have the development done for you
 
hang on hang on....scrap the throttle bodies idea....

the 1.0 wont be able to utilise the potential of throttle bodies...

what you want is a set of GSXR 750 motorbike carbs.....

these alone can see the engine revving to well over 9.5K rpm.... with well over 110BHP....
add this to a skimmed and gas flowed head and some high compression pistons and you are looking at about 150bhp or even higher....but will be at about 10,000rpm+

good luck by the way..



and the previous post is pure speculation..... no CG13DE engine outside of taiwan can produce anywhere near 200bhp N/A...lol
 
Is that right. nissan europe produced the kit car back in late ninety's and the engines were producing 200 bhp, not everything has to come from japan. And the engine will be able to utilise the potential of throttle bodies because an e.c.u controls the fueling and you can get a very nice linear power curve through the rev range from it that the whole point of them, carbs are old age now. If you knew your engine tuning you would know that already
 
if i knew my engine tuning?.....bhahahahaha

please....

i am building my own turbo micra 1.3....and my dad used to work for turbo technics..... my cousing builds Porsche engined sandrails and i have been tuning engines for quads and mini motos since i was 12...

anyway.

what im saying is that for the price of a set of throttle bodies and the ecu and the setting up...why bother when you can get a set of carbs from ebay for about £300???
and the 1.3 engine wont be able to use the full potential of the throttle bodies as they are far too efficient...for a 1.3 anyway...
plus...
if you can provide me of anywhere in the world that says anything about 200BHP n/a CG13de engines, then i will eat my number plates...

promise...lol
 
In that case you might aswell go to the dentist now and arrange a new set of teeth as reg plates are nortious for pulling teeth out.

Seriously were i live we have a micra producing 300 bhp
 
me too...if you have a 300bhp cg13de engined micra.......i will eat every number plate from this forum...
 
Ok, it seems everyone has missed the mark completely!
I have in my capable hands:

- 1 HAAS VF04 MILLING MACHINE
- 1 HAAS SL30 TURNING MACHINE

That takes care of any block machining, custom cams and any other engine part that may need fabricating. So that's the £12000 - £14000 price estimate down to about £2000.

Secondly: I only want to use the CG10DE, that's the 1.0litre block!!! No 1.3's, it's not nearly as much fun as saying to some guy in a Clio 172 or 205 Gti that my car's only a 1 litre. So lets focus on the subject: CG10DE Tuning Properties. Stupid? Maybe... but let me know why i should or why I shouldn't!
That's why I posted the thread!

HASS - VF04: http://www.pro-cise.com/facilities/images/VF-4SS machine.jpg
HASS - SL30: http://www.jgenginedynamics.com/`shop tour/haas cnc (2).jpg

There, no messing about.

Also, Motor bike barbs might be a good idea, I've still got a set of R1's handy! What do you think?

-JGti
 
i know a company that could make you a custom crank if needed dude.. it will all be in the head work though.. getting the engine to rev isnt a problem or getting it to breath on the inlet both TB's and bike carbs have enough flow for 150BHP its all down to how much your gona get the head to flow and then the cam selection!! i know someone with a flow bench aswell if you need and heads testing.
 
Raceworx said:
i know a company that could make you a custom crank if needed dude.. it will all be in the head work though.. getting the engine to rev isnt a problem or getting it to breath on the inlet both TB's and bike carbs have enough flow for 150BHP its all down to how much your gona get the head to flow and then the cam selection!! i know someone with a flow bench aswell if you need and heads testing.
Click to expand...
Thank you Raceworks,
Some of the best feedback I've had in a while. A custom crank would be handy, and I'll bare that in mind. My dads capabilities are with motorbikes so he's already told me that he wouldn't be the best option for making a crank up.
Flowing the head is not a problem, we have the equipment to do so. We were even thinking of machining the existing valve seats to get large ones in or maybe even machine the cylinder head itself to allow even bigger valves. We wont know for sure until the head is off. The cams shouldn't be a problem either, it's just down to how much wee want to rev the wee engine. My dad has a flow bench, he's a handy guy to have around! ;) Effectively it'll be turned into a heavy motorbike engine... but it means i wont have to build a sub frame to sit different engine in (which would cost me the price of custom drive shafts as well, amongst other things).
Sounds silly I know... but it'll be fun and different no doubt!

Thanks,

-Jamie
 
I now what you mean by having that 1.0 charm i myself did something similar few years ago with the mighty 1.0, then changed for the 1.3

but if you have that machinery to your expense and your old mans knowledge you might as well go for it. I would go for the plug and play impul ECU though... dnt no whether it would be self learning and adapt to your modifications of whether its set to do a certain job.... interesting to find out though if anyone knows.
 
the impul ecu uses the same hardware as i do, its a standard nissan micra ecu with altered fueling, timing etc.

its a good ecu, but nothing amazing
 
What about a fully mapable ecu? Ex. Emerald?
I've heard REALLY good feedback, I might leave the tuning upto an expert if i'm going with injection!

EDIT: Does anyone know or show me the CG10DE cylinder dimentions? I want to see how big i can open the valves! Thanks,

-Jamie
 
if you want a spare cg10 for experimenting on you can have my one for £5 its located in my front drive and i need to get rid of it. Im going to have to throw it in a skip or something anyway.
 
I've got one thanks... perhaps I could "Dispose" it for you, i might see what i can do to the head before i play about with mines!
Where are you based?
 
from what youve said and the fact your dads into the bikes id go bike carbs/bodies all the way.. hell why not use a bike ecu to controll the ign ect use all the bikes sensors and jsut mate them all to a cg10 block..
 
Or I could just wait until December when I go for a GSXR 1100 matted into a subframe for a micra...? I could just use the money I save for the GSXR? Turbo a motorbike engine possibly?
That's another project though and more my dads than mines... not that he'll be driving it of course. He just likes the engineering and mechanics of it!

Idea's anyone?
 
i would personaly put a hyabusa engine in the front of the k11 and have it still registered as a 1.3...lol

again, as you said the hardest part would be getting the subframe and driveshafts to mate up...but if your crazy enough to attempt it........then shouldnt be too hard.....
hell if i had the room and the money i would do it myself...
 
I've got a GSXR 1100 engine... it's only 200cc shy of a hyabusa...
The subframe is costly and so is the transmittion, shafts etc...
I'd probably be better building a westfield or something! :laugh:
Micra would be some fun though... I could have the white, blue and orange GSXR graphics... I think it would look awsome!
BUT: We're straying Jamie off in the wrong direction! :laugh:

Not unless anyone is crazy enough to convince me to do a GSXR K11 Micra conversion? Possibly a turbo kit, I know a friend that builds them! ;)

Where the hell is Ed when you need him?

-Jamie
 
lol........should be realy realy "world class" conversion terratory..

but i think you should stick with the gsxr carbs......head work.. big valves, cams, high compression pistons (these can be made by anyone who makes pistons for the mini 998 engine....same sized pistons ala omega)
i think the biggest problem would be the engine revving soo hight that it shook itself to bits..

and the most time consuming part would be to balance the rods and pistons and even the crank.... but this isnt easy....as the only company in the uk that balances these things correctly (ie in every direction and every measurment not just weight) is Cosworth........mmm

Micra Cosworth...lol
 
Micra Cosworth! :D
I like it, but don't see it happening! lol...
It's looking like turbo!!! Noooooooooooooo!!!
It's not that hard to get the GSXR engine in, it's just the transmittion!!!
If I do that... It'll go like a bat outa hell! No front end wieght though so i don't know how stable it'll be on the motorway! :laugh:

I heard you can get a 1.6 into the micra without too much difficulty?
I'm surprised with the amount of possibilities there are!

-Jamie
 
SR20DET............about 350bhp....lots of weight s your not gonna float away...lol

and yeah for about £2k you could get the 1.6 in there....but why not a 2.0?
 
It's hard to bolt things on because of room. Those things are nearly 4times the weight (inc. gearbox) and I want to be able to take a corner without understeering into a tree! :laugh:
I think I can get a 1.6 from euro jap up the road. I'll have a gander about there and see what I can find, then write a shopping list up here!

-Jamie
 
Just to let you know the engine is out of the nissan cherry turbo

on a serious note just go an all steel bottom end mabye have a lot a dry sumping it as you have the machine you could machine on up no problem at all. look at how big you go valve size on both inlet and exhaust. There not much we could say in helping u as you need to talk with someone who has worked with these engines, people can help you in locating parts and stuff. At the minute i'm rebuild a peugeot touring car engine and stuff do to it is unbelieve the valve timing is so close that if you get it 0.5deg out you can bend the valves by turning the engine over by hand. If you talk to an engine builder he can tell you what will work and want won't. Are your machines cnc by the way good luck with the build
 
They are CNC's and VERY good ones!
They're precision equipment. I used to work with them on a daily basis. I used the for odd jobs whenever my dad isn't using them for work.
About £300,000 a machine! :|
 
This post is just for research, so the build hasn't started yet. I'm trying to get a rough idea of what I'm going for first. So we've come up with a few idea's but I think I'm going to go with turbo power as there doesn't seem to be any massive power gains to be had with n/a. It is a 1000cc block though, I expected that!

-Jamie
 
the 1.0 and 1.3 blocks are the same..... only the stroke is different..

the 1.0 will rev much higher than the 1.3 as a result. but they are essentialy identical.
 
I like the idea of shorter strokes, I like the sound of an engine that has to work harder to gain more torque. :laugh:
I'm thinking now more reasonably, I could afford a skyline with the amount of money I'm going to spend! :(
Got to keep them suggestions coming at me guys... I'm losing faith rapidly!
 

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