Gears popping out: 1st & 5th, sometimes 3rd, once 2nd

SteveG

Intake n exhaust almost done, suspension next :)
This is starting to get annoying/dangerous and here is what is happening, and has developed over the last few weeks:

1st and 5th gears often pop out of gear, both while travelling and when setting off. 3rd occasionally pops out, and 2nd has done so once. Also, there is a new secondary whirring noise that is most prominent when accelerating in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, and rises/falls in sync with the engine, so it rises in 1st, then when I change to 2nd it drops and rises again, etc. Reverse has always been a pig to engage ('96 K11's on 81k now, I got it at 50k), and 1st has become similarly difficult sometimes, even with the clutch pedal pressed to the floor (or stopping bolt / whatever).

When the car came back from the garage after the MOT in early June, the point at which the clutch pedal presses down on anything was adjusted a fair bit lower, from maybe 1/4 way down to 1/2 way down or more, so whereas before there was only a tiny bit of free travel, now there is loads. It feels a bit slippy to when changing compared to how it was before.

If I lift off the clutch pedal completely in neutral, it sounds like it's bringing the clutch down on something because the engine revs/tone dips in the same way that it would do if you were just biting 1st with the handbrake/brakes on.

I thought the new whirring sound might be the gearbox oil being due for a change, so I drained and replaced the gear oil with 80w90. The drain plug had some silvery fine grindings, but only enough to dab a fingertip, assume that would be acceptable for the mileage/age. The old oil was yellowy brown, but fairly on the smokey brown end of things. There was a fair amount of oil and dirt on the bottom of the gearbox, so I've degreased it to mostly clean in case there is a leak (I didn't check the oil level before changing the gear oil).

Despite having a father and uncle that restore classic and modern cars (and even helping my dad on several builds as a boy), I am still a bit of a novice in the grand scheme of things. Last week I got a hydraulic jack, axle stands and creeper, and was glad to be able to get the gearstick out (the rusted to f*** exhaust looks like it would fall apart if I tried to unbolt it, so I worked around it) and degreased/inspected/regreased (Castrol general purpose) the ball joint and the ends of the plastic bushes on the linkage rod - I didn't realise the bushes popped out the end until I looked on the Internet after having reassembled everything, so I didn't grease inside there, just the outside ends.

The gear oil change and linkage regrease has had no effect on the secondary sound, nor the awkward reverse/1st engaging, and also absolutely no effect on the gears popping out.

I don't have an engine hoist, and the beams in my garage are already slightly sagging under the weight of the roof, so I doubt I could invest in a pulley to get the engine out. The Haynes manual was vague and inaccurate (I guess due to the K11 design variance between models/years) for the gearbox/gearstick stuff, so I only skimmed over the transmission overhaul section. Can the gearbox be removed from the bottom without taking the engine out?

Or, am I best off just taking it to my local garage and have them look at it, in terms of the difficulty of me attempting this myself for the first time, versus the potential small/medium cost of them fitting a replacement 2nd hand clutch, gearbox, etc.?
 
Try tightening your clutch cable ul. This should pull the slack out of your clutch. Struggling to get in and out of reverse may be an aging clutch at this stage
As for popping put of gear goes (if its primarily 1st, 3rd and 5th) you may have a worn and loose rear engine mount. Allowing the engine to pivot more thus pulling it out of gear. It would be worth getting underneath and checking its condition and if so replaced.
My gearboxes on nearly all my cars have made noise and its never been anything to worry about. My revs also drop when I lift the clutch pedal but only slightly. Its simply the load of turning the gearbox on the engine.
May be worth giving your idle control a clean. When was it last fully serviced?
Give your clutch cable a try first. Then your rear engine mount. Finally the idle control
 
Before I started driving it, I think it only ever had repairs for MOT. The previous two years to now, I've opted for service+MOT around the 100 quid mark, so I think it's only ever had a basic service.

I've never noticed the rev dip in neutral, clutch pedal lifted, but probably because I've not been concentrating/listening to it as hard before!

I'll play around with the clutch cable / pedal stop tonight and have a look at the rear engine mount. Can also have a look at the idle control valve... found a cigarette filter in the dirty side of the air box, so could be anything in there I guess, haha.
 
Double check the service quality for yourself. I've seen countless garages skimp out to save money and make more profit. Not many honest places about.
Let us know how it goes
You'll be surprised what you find in there. I found a squirrels nest in a battery case of a vectra not long ago :D
 
Had a play around with the clutch pedal stop and the cable adjuster. It seemed slightly easier to change gear for about 5 minutes of driving around, and then gears started popping out, 1st mainly, and also is randomly difficult to change into 1st. So, basically the same situation as before.

It started bucketing it down and was pretty dark from the rainclouds so didn't attempt to inspect the engine mount, and was so cold, wet and annoyed that I forgot about the idle control valve completely.

I should probably point out that the weird noise when accelerating has only recently started happening, so it's a new extra noise that was not there for the previous two and half years. It's not a particularly offensive or loud noise, it's just the fact that it's new that worries me.

If I didn't have to chauffeur people to/from work I could dismantle bits of the car and not have to worry about reassembling it as working for the next morning. I'll probably just take a look at the engine mount and idle control valve and take it into a garage because I'm quickly getting out of my depth in terms of what I'm supposed to be looking for :oops:
 
When accelerating press the clutch and seek if the new noise goes away.. if it does its a gearbox whine. If it doesn't then it may be a pulley.
Keep at it your not out your depth yet. Plenty of guidance on here :)
Did you tighten the clutch cable? And it improved?
 
I actually loosened the clutch cable, and didn't try it tighter than it was. Will have a go at setting it tighter tonight, and the clutch press listen...
 
I tried tightening the clutch cable until the biting point was right at the top of the pedal, so everywhere from the bottom quarter of pedal travel to the top. This only achieved adjustment of the biting point and did not have any effect on making 1st easier to shift into, and did not help 1st and 5th stay in gear - in about 10-15 minutes of driving, both gears fell out a few times.

The secondary whirring noise only happens with the clutch out... the idle control valve and engine mount check will have to wait until the weekend when I have time to jack the car up and dismantle stuff.

How does the idle control valve have an effect on the gear box? I couldn't make sense of the Haynes manual about it...
 
It wont have a direct effect on the gearbox. But when load is placed on the engine the idle control should pick tge revs up to cope that's all. Either way giving a look at can only help.
The cable sounds like its fine to me then. So you can rule that out. Just the result of checking this rear mount now :)
This secondary whirring noise is just the gearbox turning then and no need to panic about it
 
Well I finally had a look under the car and the rear engine mount (assuming that's the rubber/metal mount right next to the universal joint of the gear rod) looks intact and secure. The front right mount looks like it has a gap between the central metal part and the two rubber things either side, giving a bit of play/movement that I can move around with my hands. I don't know what kind of play is normal here?

Today, when driving back from work, one (or both?) of the belts was squeaking REALLY loudly, and it felt like the handbrake was a 1/4 on until the belt shut up with high enough revs and then it pulled mostly normally (it seems sluggish ever since the whirring started). Both belt tension screws are screwed all the way in, so there's no way to tighten them anymore. I checked the tension using the highly accurate technique described in the Haynes manual, pressing my finger halfway down a belt section and guessing how far it flexed. They were both about right, but the engine was hot then and the belts were only squealing at the start of the journey. Time for some new/replacement belts?

I recently had to have all the tyre valve stems replaced because the rubber had perished on one and I got a flat tyre and 2 slow ones (!!!), so maybe all the rubber in the car is at the age when it's stretched/cracked/compressed as far as it will go?

The *worst* thing about today, and why I won't be driving it tomorrow, is that it started making a clunking/scraping sound, that sounded like when one of the heatshields partly fell off and was scraping the road intermittently. I pulled over as soon as I could get off the road and got on the floor to check underneath and nothing was hanging down or seemed loose.

From looking underneath today, everything is quite rusty, so it's not looking very promising. I'm considering just binning it due to the condition as I'm not sure the repair costs of a clutch, gearbox, and whatever else would be worth it? It's not really in very condition overall, due to years of neglect (non-use) out in the elements.
 
Sounds like replacement belts. Only approx £5 each. Clutch is about £30
This whirring noise... you say it relates to power loss?
Have you had a look at brakes recently? Could just need a clean :)
 
Took it in to a garage and the guy checked it out and said the clutch is fine, but the gearbox has had it. He said he had a quick look for a replacement and found one for 175 (lol), would charge 80 quid labour, and then 10 or something for gear oil.

Obviously I'd already checked out prices of gearboxes and seemed to be consensus of about 90 quid average, eBay prices near me are 40-150. I said I'd have a look around to see if I could find another one, and he said he'd be happy fitting one I sourced and brought in.

I kinda wish I knew what was wrong with the gearbox. If it's just bearings etc, I could get a gearbox bearings overhaul set... also came across reconditioned gearboxes, although quite pricey...

The garage I took it to apparently charges per job rather than per hour, so if it turns out to need extra work, they have been known to do the extra bits at no extra cost... so that's something I'm considering as benefit of choosing the garage option.

Wish I had a double width garage with no crap in it lol, then I could just have it in bits and do a bit each day... probably ain't gonna happen with narrow car port and garage full of stuff.

So, with looking to source a gearbox, any pointers on what to look for in terms of are there variations that won't fit mine, and for inspecting the condition, am I just looking at gears and bearings for wear?
 
you will need a pre-facelift 1.0 g/box steve, and bearings are cheap but synchro.s/forks etc will be expensive
 
Cheers Frank. Is it worth looking into getting parts to overhaul the existing gearbox? Or shall I just stick to hunting for a decent condition replacement? Is there a code or part number for the pre facelift gearboxes? Just thinking it might be tricky at a scrap yard if they're dead similar looking...
 
the p/f 1.0 one is an RS5F41 mate, but there is only a serial number stamped on, the other RS5F30 g/box,s have a small steel circular cover on the outer end with a ring of bolts
 
Just wanted to come back and conclude this thread for posterity.

I tried to drive the car from the garage back to my house for the weekend, on the advice of the garage mechanic that sometimes people from a pub nearby might mess around with cars in the road. The car sounded terrible like it was in reverse and felt like it was powered by a goat on a skateboard or something, so I stuck the hazard lights on and drove about 15mph.

Fortunately, the car behind me was following with a decent amount of distance between us, because all of a sudden the wheels locked up and the car screeched to a halt, and the smell of burnt tyre rubber was in the air.

I couldn't get the car in neutral, and the car wouldn't budge without the clutch in, so I had to get an onlooker to give me a push to the side of the road when I held the clutch in, just to get out of the way of traffic. I called my housemate to give me a push around the corner to park it properly.

Luckily, I opted for road-side assistance with my insurance so the tow to the garage on the Monday morning was free, apparently they had a hell of a time getting the car off the truck as the wheels locked up again several times.

Ended up having to get the clutch, gearbox and differential changed out as they were all fubared.

Was £263 altogether including labour and gearbox oil etc. so not too bad. Once the wheels locked up, I knew I'd be struggling to fix it myself - my dad said it'd be tough if I'd never done it before, and not really something for a novice to try on a daily driver used for commuting due to the inevitable long time involved.

Drives beautifully now, better than when I started driving it. Just need to attend to some minor rusted body work and possibly xylene the underside and it'll be good for a fair few more years :)

Anyway, had to come back to wrap this thread up because the "weird noise" ended up locking the wheels up and making the car pretty much stationary - if this happened at speed it could have been a disaster - so I'd say if anyone has a similar issue, don't ignore it!
 
Had the same problem with my old gearbox, popping out of gears and whining noises, fitted a new clutch and clutch cable and got myself another gearbox which was on another car which the gearbox came in the colour black indicating. The the gearbox was recondtioned and got the reciept also!! Got the gearbox for 60 squid with 5000 miles of usage and that solved the issue, namely the gearbox was proper F--ked.

I juiced up the gearboxwith correct fluids and add the Activ8 gear oil additive and the box is happy now!! But when the car runs on boost I will see the reaction of the box then!

J
 
Ive had locked up wheels before when the diff was the issue on other cars, scary experience when bits of metal go flying everywhere! glad its sorted!!
 
Ive had locked up wheels before when the diff was the issue on other cars, scary experience when bits of metal go flying everywhere! glad its sorted!!

Had that done to me when i had my ALPINA, doing 135mph and with a dogleg gearbox there was this massive crunch and propshaft banging under the g/b tunnel now thats f-----g scary but held together pretty good, slowed right down quickly and there was g/b oil every where dripping under the chassis... not bad eh!! lol

J
 
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