Engine not starting

Hi Guys, sorry this is a question as my first and that I'm not a Micra March owner. I'm working on my wifes Figaro and unfortunately their forums tend to be less technically inclined.:(

Here's the story so far

I had a set of new HT leads, a rotor arm and distributor plus plugs to fit . I fitted the plugs first and then started the car ,all good. Removed and fitted cap, rotor and leads and it wouldn't start .

No spark at the plugs .

I replaced the old cap and rotor and still no spark at the plugs.

Checked the coil next and no spark from the king lead :(

I couldn't find any dislodged leads ( seperate earth and 4 lead block on top of CAS only ?)

I ran a fault code check but I'd had to pull the battery to recharge so don't know if that wiped it but even after attempting to start several times it came back as 44 , no fault found .

It may just be coincidence that something else chose then to stop working but I've no idea of what tests to run or circuits to check ( have a multimeter and the ability ).

Am I correct that the CAS works on an earth switch basis so that injectors are constantly live as is the coil ?

I have a 2 pin plug on the coil which has one terminal live when ignition on , if I bridge that with the multimetter and spin the engine will that show 'switching' if the CAS is working ?

Any other ways of checking the CAS is OK and continuity of wiring ?

I had a spark at the kinglead at the coil to start with but that has disappeared no hence I'm thinkiking either coil or CAS . Anyway to check the coil ?


Thanks for reading and any help you can offer.
 

imp124

Buy & Sell Member
there is a check you can do on the coil with a multimeter im sure, others can advise on this, have you tried a new / different coil as if there was a spark and now isnt it could have been a coil on its way out?
 

frank

Club Member
is it an MA10 with a turbo kapri ? some pics would help the k10 guys to identify if its a generic coil/cap/leads etc :grinning:
 

MLC2

Ex. Club Member
I believe its a similar ignition system to the ST.

I don't know if the ECU is clever enough to realise it is missing a crank angle sensor signal when cranking and flash a code.

Yes you should see switching across the coil terminals when you crank the engine, but I am not sure if you would be able to detect it with an ordinary multimeter. You could try wiring a bulb across and see if it flickers but it's not something I have ever tried.

The coil has got an ignition module bolted to the side of it and its possible this may have failed.

You can do a basic resistance check on the coil. Don't know the exact figures but I would expect 1.0 to 1.5 ohms across the primary winding (the two plug terminals) and 8 to 12 K ohms across the secondary.

Hope this helps
 
OP
OP
K
Thanks for the help so far guys:grinning:

I've just checked the injectors ( i've got anoid set ) and they are pulsing plus it IS switching at the coil ( used a bulb cheers ) so that's the CAS ruled out ( phew! ) . I've just unbolted the coil and the primary is 1.1 ohms, can't remember how to check the secondary so going to dig out any old manual to remind me .

Is there any way to test the 3 pin ignition module ?

Its a MA10E-T engine by the way .
 
OP
OP
K
Just checked the secondary and it's 9.85 on both terminals .

EDIT . I've just cleaned up the earth terminal that bolts to the coil ( insulated by rubber washers from the coil mounting bracket ) and put it all back together ,still no spark.

Then I've run a check on that terminal with a multi meter and ,with the igntion turned on, I get a reading of 3.6 volts between that earth terminal and the earth battery post ? Is that correct ?

If I discnnect the 2 pin switching plug to the coil that reading goes .
Surely that means one of the coil windings is 'leaking to earth?
 

MLC2

Ex. Club Member
Ok luckily I am working on mine at the moment and have done a few checks.
This is assuming the ignition system is the same of course.

The coil measurements I get are about 1 ohm on the primary between the two multplug terminals, and about 9.8K ohm from the multiplug terminals to the HT terminal.
The earth terminal appears to be connected to the ferrite core, and the rubber insulators isolate this from the body ground.
I have no resistance between any of the terminals and this earth terminal, and with ignition on supplying 12V to the primary I get no voltage on it.

So I think you may be right that you have got a short to ground on the secondary winding.

I bet Nissan would ask a silly price for a replacement. I'd try a few motor factors with the Nissan part number off the coil it see if they can match it with an after market part as I'm sure it must have been used on a number of vehicles.

The part number on my coil is 22433 56E11
 
OP
OP
K
Many thanks for your help :)


Do you know if the wire connected to that post is just an earth lead or the trigger wire from the CAS? I'm trying to make sense of the wiring through the ignition module and coil .

Currently ( ouch ! ) it appears power from ignition switch to module is black/white . The centre brown appears to come out at the coil as black /white ( continuity check ) and the red/white from module goes to coil as red /white.

That looks a bit weird as I'd have thought b/w would carry on as b/w ?

Also when I ran a continuity check it came up that the coil earth post lead was interconnected to the brown / b/w which means I can't see where the trigger wire is ?

Unless of course the module is shot ( around £90 ! ) and the genuine coil is £180 . I have a source of cheap(er) Fig parts which are about half that , still hurts if I buy one and it doesn't cure it.

I've just run a serie sof current and continuity checks with ignition on /off and different leads disconnected , just got to try and make sense of them.
 
Hang on!

Perhaps I've jumped in without reading the thread properly but with the ignition on you are not getting battery voltage at the coil? Theres your fault!
You need power going in to get power out.

Rather than measuring the resistance in the wiring (which only really tells you there is a connection) measure the voltage drop.
Set your multimeter to voltage, connect one end to the positive battery terminal and one to the positive at the coil with the ignition on. It should read between 0.0v and about 0.3v. any more and theres a bad connection. If you measured the resistance, it could read 0.0 ohms but be hanging by a single strand of wire!

I can't remember the last time I worked on one of these so particulars are a bit hazy but why not run a fused wire direct to the coil and try it? I'm sure the live leads straight to the coil from the ignition rather than from the ignition module but make sure the module is getting a live with the ignition on too.

As with any electrical problems check the fuses and battery terminals too.

We had a Calibra turbo in recently, the owner usually does all his own work but he was stuck. The car kept showing the fault code for a faulty knock sensor. The guy replaced the sensor, replaced the sensor again, had an 'auto electrician' check the wiring, replaced the ECU, replaced the engine wiring loom. Everyone had tried more extreme and weird diagnostics. We tightened the battery terminals! Guy phoned last night to say he was just back after a 600 mile journey and the fault hadn't re-occurred!

Always start with the basics!
 

Baz

Ex. Club Member
If it ends up being the coil I have one here from and march st your can have for 30pound if you want to pm me your details
 

MLC2

Ex. Club Member
...I have a 2 pin plug on the coil which has one terminal live when ignition on ,

The ignition is ECU driven not points so not so easy to do that basic wiring check.

BTW you were lucky with your Calibra turbo. The last one in we had in set fire to itself because of a short in the wiring loom. Luckily it was outside at the time:laugh:
 
MLC2

We had another one. In with a jammed clutch cable. We replaced the cable and left it running for a few minutes. It went on fire!
The earth strap at the gearbox was broken so it began earthing through the clutch cable. Thats what knackered the old cable and made our workshop smell of burnt plastic! LOL!
 
OP
OP
K
The ignition is ECU driven not points so not so easy to do that basic wiring check.
:

Yup, knew that but struggling to work out the wiring without a diagram.:blush:
It looks like earth switched by the CAS with the lead to the coil body being attached to that ?

What threw me was that the car was working perfectly until I fitted the new cap ,leads and rotor . My thinking now is that the ignition module couldn't cope with the new loading and threw its hand in.

Anyone know the wiring for the ignition module or how it actually functions ?

There are power feeds to both coil and module with ignition on ( black /white lead ) . I ran the voltage drop tests yesterday and all as expected (Y)
 

MLC2

Ex. Club Member
MLC2

We had another one. In with a jammed clutch cable. We replaced the cable and left it running for a few minutes. It went on fire!
The earth strap at the gearbox was broken so it began earthing through the clutch cable. Thats what knackered the old cable and made our workshop smell of burnt plastic! LOL!

Ha Ha that's crazy
 

MLC2

Ex. Club Member
kapri talking about checking the basics I remember seeing something about a problem with the two wire connections on top of the battery positive terminal corroding.

If you don't mind butchering your loom you can test the coil by cutting through the insulation on the wire to the coil that DOESN'T go live with ignition. Connect an earthed spark plug to the coil, tap an earth against this wire and you should get a good spark.

The ignition module is basically just a high power transistor. One terminal (base) is the drive signal from the ECU, one terminal (emitter) will go to ground, and the other terminal (collector) will go to the coil negative. The coil positive will go to a live via a relay somewhere.
 
OP
OP
K
After speaking with Gareth from G J Northall , a Figaro specialist he told me how to check the Ignition module. There is a diode between terminal 2 and 3 which should allow current to flow in only one direction. Mine is flowing both ways so I've ordered a replacement which wil hopefully fix it,. I'll let you know.
 

Baz

Ex. Club Member
After speaking with Gareth from G J Northall , a Figaro specialist he told me how to check the Ignition module. There is a diode between terminal 2 and 3 which should allow current to flow in only one direction. Mine is flowing both ways so I've ordered a replacement which wil hopefully fix it,. I'll let you know.

I also have a moduel there for 5pound.
 
OP
OP
K
Well the module turned up, fitted..STILL not starting .

Grrrrr..

I've just done 1.5 hours ,backs killing me and my brain REALLY hurts. I'm getting old and looks like it's stopped figuring out what the hell is going on

I'm definitely getting switched ECU signal (red/white wire ) but it's switching at the coil AND ignition module ( or appears to be ).

Ignition module has :-

red/white = ECU signal

brown = main earth (?)

white /black= negative signal


Coil has :-

red /white =ECU signal

white/black = negative signal

seperate earth lead ( which is testing up as constant negative, no switching )



The tach needle ISN'T twitching when cranking.

I've just switched my multimeter to diode ( never tried this before ) to test the Ignition module . I'm getting readings both ways on old AND new module , is that correct ? Surely I haven't got a knackered NEW unit as well?

Plus, as the ignition module has a steel back that bolts to the coil mounting bracket I'm assuming that is the way the central brown terminal get's its earth ? If so shouldn't I get a continuity reading between that central brown terminal and the outer steel casing ?
 
OP
OP
K
I've had the coil off the car so I rigged it all up on the floor to make it spark . I checked continuity between positive and negative posts .

Then a resistance check , 1 across the lt terminals and 10.4 on the ht.

Connected a spark plug to the coil and used a jump lead to connect that to negative post . Postive power to one coil terminal and then connected a lead to the negative post . I used that to flick on and off the negative and NO spark at the plug.

There is another terminal on the coil that is isolated from the main body earth. I'm pretty sure this is the tacho pulse lead ( comes up as connected to a negative polarity when installed on the car ) but ran a seperate from that to negative battery terminal to be sure .

Tried 'flicking' again and NO spark again.

Just in case I had an error elsewhere I tried a conventional round coil connected up the same and I got a spark at the plug .

So it looked like coil failure especially as I also had a voltage drop between HT coil lead and coil body of 0.08volt , enough to leak all power to earth.

New coil arrived today and straight into life :)

Thanks to everyone for their help and I hope this little saga may help others in the future,
cheers guys
 
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