E85, anyone else running it?

Here in FInland, we've got a strange situation. Ethanol fuels are almost half the price compared to normal. Example:

RE85: 1.04€/L
95E: 1.69€/L

The large "USE ONLY WITH FLEXFUEL VEHICLES" stickers on the pumps are probably scaring away most people from experimenting with it. However, those with programmable ECU's really like this ethanol fuel, since you can run higher timings, and not worry about detonation. When running only on ethanol, you should expect a 25% increase in fuel usage. Still, it's so cheap that it makes up for it.

I've been experimenting with my daily -99 K11, which is totally stock! I started by mixing a 30%/70% cocktail (RE85/95E), and it went so good that I increased the mixture to 50%/50%!

Some numbers:
Full tank regular fuel: 76€
Full tank 50/50 mix: 55€

On my other Nissan, a 100NX GTi , with an SR20VE engine swap, I'm planning to run 100% ethanol fuel. There I have a nismotronic ECU, so I can easily adjust the AFR, and make it a converted flexifuel vehicle.

Shame there's no such thing for the K11 :/

How's the situation in the UK?
 

Enuo

Glorified Electrician
watch ethanol on the seals in the fuel system. iirc you need nitrile seals to cope?
 
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Daniel_
watch ethanol on the seals in the fuel system. iirc you need nitrile seals to cope?
Correct, when you run the pure E85, it eats away the hoses carrying the fuel. However, this is a long process. After looking at some swedish forums (thay've had e85 the longest), the time before the hoses split was around 5-12 years on older cars. Since I'm only running a mix,I think the hoses will last even longer.

On my 100NX i will swap out the hoses eventually. The micra will have to battle through!
 

Enuo

Glorified Electrician
In UK I think all fuels at the pump run something like 10% ethanol, although they can legally run up to 20% without declaring it?
More ignition advance doesn't necessarily make more power unless the burn rate of ethanol is slower than that of petrol...
 

Japi

Site Supporter
About a year ago I drove few thousand kilometers using 100% E85. Consumption with it was about 8 litres/100 km (with gas about 6l/100km). I´ve got a bit higher fuel pressure and 1.6 injectors. I didn´t notice any other problems than poor cold starts. Poor starting was so annoying that I´ve been running on gas since (Didn´t bother mess with ignition timing or some other "enrichment solutions" for starting)
 
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Daniel_
About a year ago I drove few thousand kilometers using 100% E85. Consumption with it was about 8 litres/100 km (with gas about 6l/100km). I´ve got a bit higher fuel pressure and 1.6 injectors. I didn´t notice any other problems than poor cold starts. Poor starting was so annoying that I´ve been running on gas since (Didn´t bother mess with ignition timing or some other "enrichment solutions" for starting)

Good to hear, remember at what temperature it started to be hard to start? -5*C seemed to work fine with the 50/50 mix, but perhaps not at -25*C? :p
 

Japi

Site Supporter
On my other Nissan, a 100NX GTi , with an SR20VE engine swap, I'm planning to run 100% ethanol fuel. There I have a nismotronic ECU, so I can easily adjust the AFR, and make it a converted flexifuel vehicle.
-I think too that it would be easier to use ethanol in your 100NX GTi than Micra.

If I´ve understood correctly, benefits of the fuel would be even bigger with turbo engines despite of lower fuel efficiency. Ethanol tolerates more pressure than petrol so you can increase the boost pressure.
(I hope you all with forced induction don´t use any violence against me if you´ll find a hole in your piston after this ;) )
 
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Daniel_
-I think too that it would be easier to use ethanol in your 100NX GTi than Micra.

If I´ve understood correctly, benefits of the fuel would be even bigger with turbo engines despite of lower fuel efficiency. Ethanol tolerates more pressure than petrol so you can increase the boost pressure.
(I hope you all with forced induction don´t use any violence against me if you´ll find a hole in your piston after this ;) )
You're absolutely right about the turbo engines, look what E85 can do with a SR20VET:




For the lazy, 307hp->372hp! :eek:
 
e85 is massive in australia.

when the turbo build is finished i intend to be running 10psi on e85 thru a stock r33 gtr t28 turbo.

in turbo applications, you do need a bigger pump and injectors tho. ill also be running a modified sr20 fuel rail.
 

Japi

Site Supporter
Hi Plattsy!

What are the petrol prices in Australia?

Good luck with your project!
...Been following your thread on micra.com.au. :)
 
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Daniel_
Interesting to hear that it's big down under!

I'm finishing up the 100NX atm, Nismotronic is installed, so I'm gonna start tuning next week. The setup:
SR20VE, 333cc injectors, Walbro 255, RE85 (effectively e75 at winter)
If the injector duty cycle goes too high, I'll throw in my SR20DET 370cc injectors.

I'll bump this thread when I have some graphs :)
 
Hi Plattsy!

What are the petrol prices in Australia?

Good luck with your project!
...Been following your thread on micra.com.au. :)
cheers mate, its stalled abit due to the heatwave and family commitments, should have her on the road by march then the fun can begin!

shell 98 octane is 1.75 aus dollars this morning.
e85 i dont have a clue!

Interesting to hear that it's big down under!

I'm finishing up the 100NX atm, Nismotronic is installed, so I'm gonna start tuning next week. The setup:
SR20VE, 333cc injectors, Walbro 255, RE85 (effectively e75 at winter)
If the injector duty cycle goes too high, I'll throw in my SR20DET 370cc injectors.

I'll bump this thread when I have some graphs :)
you should be fine on a natro engine. interesting to see what it will do... unfortunately my ls1 engine in my other car has quite low compression for a natro albeit v8, so e85 is of no use to me in that!
 
your kidding? pushing it in a big way down under. new petrol stations opening weekly that have e85 on tap.

cant wait to see what power im gonna get.
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Moderator
Club Member
your kidding? pushing it in a big way down under. new petrol stations opening weekly that have e85 on tap.

cant wait to see what power im gonna get.
Fraid not, it's now only available in those nice blue drums along with all the other race fuels. You're talking £3-3.50 per litre too.

You can probably get it via a wholesaler but I would imagine you would have to be prepared to buy in some serious bulk quantity numbers ;)
 

topau

Ex. Club Member
Another Finn here having 100% E85 in K11 1.3. My setup is now having GA16 injectors and 3.5bar fuel pressure, better flowing headers and intake with cone filter and no airbox.

Just tried to log some injector time and duty cycle figures to be able to find out the output power. For some reason the duty cycle was only 42% max and max injector time 8,7ms. Air flow was max. 4.65 reported by DataScan.

With that duty cycle it would mean something like 50hp, so I am a little bit disappointed.

In case of someone is using Nissan Datascan and has figures to use for comparison, I would be very interested.
 

topau

Ex. Club Member
...and shortly after posting the previous message, I remembered that I removed the rev limiter, which means that the injector time is halved due to being twice per cycle. So this means max 84% duty cycle, which is about 100hp.

Anyway comparison to some other setup would be nice.
 
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Daniel_
...and shortly after posting the previous message, I remembered that I removed the rev limiter, which means that the injector time is halved due to being twice per cycle. So this means max 84% duty cycle, which is about 100hp.

Anyway comparison to some other setup would be nice.
Don't know if it helps you, but I ran some logs last week, and saw that my 370cc injectors maxed out at 84% duty cycle @ 7100rpm. Should be right below the 200hp mark for a VE

I don't think you gain any power from simply running E85 (N/A). But when you use it on a turbocharged system, things get interesting...

High-compression SR20VE-T, about to start boosting:


I need bigger injectors..
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Moderator
Club Member
What's E85 worth on average, ~10% on a big boost engine?

Plattsy makes ~225bhp at the wheels from a CG13DE, 9psi of boost and 370cc injectors.

We really need more info on this as it doesn't add up based on historical data of boosted CG engines and fueling requirements don't add up unless there's about 9bar rail pressure.
 

topau

Ex. Club Member
Typical improvements for turbo setups (dyno) have been up to 30% increase.

@ Daniel: Now I am having a NA setup, but I have been testing electric turbo, but it saturates the cg13 maf. Now I have to find a bigger maf. That is a positive problem though. :)
 

Low Rider

Poindexter
Moderator
Club Member
I'll probably 'try' E85 in the future just for the heck of it but not on the current setup or ECU.

E85 is only available via specialist fuel suppliers and, at current power levels, I would need to think hard about the fuel system. I'm already fairly close to the limits on 440cc/min as it is. On E85 I'd have to run more like ~700cc/min :eek:
 
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Daniel_
Typical improvements for turbo setups (dyno) have been up to 30% increase.

@ Daniel: Now I am having a NA setup, but I have been testing electric turbo, but it saturates the cg13 maf. Now I have to find a bigger maf. That is a positive problem though. :)
Interesting! I ditched the MAF, I hate em with a passion :) After going MAP sensor, you will never go back to MAF again. Ofcourse, this means you need a good standalone engine management system..

How much did you gain from the electric turbo? I've seen GT86's gain 10-35hp from a really simple setup. Those guys love electric turbos, since they don't void the new car warranty.
 

Enuo

Glorified Electrician
*Electric supercharger.

If there is a turbine it is by definition not electric.
 
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