Brake Upgrade Options

I know this is a common topic, I have searched but have come up with countless dribble and nonsense. Besides the ad22v upgrade, has anybody managed to use brake calipers from another make? Perhaps Toyota or mitsubishi as i understand corollas and maybe? fto's have the required 130mm caliper bolt spacing. Perhaps toyota Caldinas etc etc anyways, i believe there are a fair few makes with this spacing, the problem most likely being the offset of the rotors.

So has anybody got solid experience or ideas before i start researching. People want ridiculous amounts of money here for 20 year old ad22's and i cant justify that so im looking for alternatives.

Cheers,
George
 
Perhaps looking for something on par or bigger than ad22's as the car is putting out 120+kw, assumption tells me that 100nx brakes would be smaller. Or am i completely wrong?
 
They are slightly smaller. That's why I chose them. The adv22s are particularly heavy. Also the Micra is a lot lighter. Therefore does not require massive brakes to stop. The 100nx or almera are quite heavy etc. The choice is yours though.
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
I am in the position of 130hp@wheels and 150 torque and I must admit the 100 nxs are fine. Admittedly I want to upgrade to willwood pulsar brakes with a middle stop on some leant pulsar stock callipers. but if my memory serves me they are both adv22 calipers.. however. the carrier is different to make up for the extra disk size.

*edit* this comparison is on the adv22/between the 2litre *thanks agent* 100nx and the pulsar brakes
 
Last edited:
The smaller calipers off the 1.6 have the same size 48mm pistons as the micra compared to the 54mm in the adv22s. So there is no increased pedal travel some have experienced.
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
The smaller calipers off the 1.6 have the same size 48mm pistons as the micra compared to the 54mm in the adv22s. So there is no increased pedal travel some have experienced.
Something tells me that there is a few mm difference between the abs and non abs models dude. Might be wrong.
 

frank

Club Member
I know this is a common topic, I have searched but have come up with countless dribble and nonsense. Besides the ad22v upgrade, has anybody managed to use brake calipers from another make? Perhaps Toyota or mitsubishi as i understand corollas and maybe? fto's have the required 130mm caliper bolt spacing. Perhaps toyota Caldinas etc etc anyways, i believe there are a fair few makes with this spacing, the problem most likely being the offset of the rotors.

So has anybody got solid experience or ideas before i start researching. People want ridiculous amounts of money here for 20 year old ad22's and i cant justify that so im looking for alternatives.

Cheers,
George
yeh, its about time someone found some alternatives to the mofo heavy 22,s :) alloy calipers preferably
 
I am in the position of 130hp@wheels and 150 torque and I must admit the 100 nxs are fine. Admittedly I want to upgrade to willwood pulsar brakes with a middle stop on some leant pulsar stock callipers. but if my memory serves me they are both adv22 calipers.. however. the carrier is different to make up for the extra disk size.

*edit* this comparison is on the adv22/between the 100nx and the pulsar brakes
Only on the 2.0l were the adv22s fitted though.
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
I wrote a decent sized reply, but the app did its usual crash for **** all reason (@James I'm deleting it, its beyond a joke now)
So I'll rewrite my long reply later on on the computer as per usual
 

frank

Club Member
i just did some testing :), with the back axle jacked up (ie bias valve fully in) and the fronts were at about 50nm with only 1 finger pressure on the pedal (scissor jack applying the pedal pressure) and when i applied enough pressure for the rear wheels to be quite hard to turn, i was unable to turn the fronts even with this 3/4 breaker bar !
(my handbrake works fine btw, so the rear shoes are dry and correctly adjusted)

PA210225.JPG
 

skymera

Brutal Honesty
I wrote a decent sized reply, but the app did its usual crash for #### all reason (@James I'm deleting it, its beyond a joke now)
So I'll rewrite my long reply later on on the computer as per usual
I've had no issues using Tapatalk. Though the latest update has ruined it imo.
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
Brake size is determined on the potential top speed of a car and its laden weight. The 1.6 100nx brakes are designed to stop 1.3tonnes or there abouts and a potential speed of 140 mph, so they're more than man enough to cope with a much lighter car despite its power. Being lighter will make the brakes more aggressive in the first place

Gti-R brakes are complete overkill, my opinion of them is that they create more problems than they solve, master cylinder swapping to get correct piston ratio and pedal feel (althought I vary mine to road condition not everyone is going to want to), they're so heavy too, unsprung weight is rediculous on such a light car. Nobody needs such hard braking on the public road either, even track use you're unlikely to wear the 1.6 kit out, although the 2pot Subaru calipers aren't far off a direct fit (I'll take a photo of the Nissan and Subaru caliper stud pattern) as and when I remember.

That said I searched for a lighter option, size wasnt a high on the list, if they were going to be smaller then so be it. In the end I decided to use 300mm front discs from a Renault and Willwood 4pot radial mounted calipers to be fitted next year, only need simple brackets making to mount them to suit. They'll just squeeze under a 15" wheel.. it'll still be lighter than the GTi-R setup, and before any one says "you just said you dont need such big brakes on a road car", because I know what people are like.. mine is primarily a competition car, rarely sees the general roads, with the future prospect of around 400hp and will be competing in the Time Attack series next year... I need to stop on a dime, consistenly, every time.
 

frank

Club Member
Glad someone's taken em out, they just seem a bad idea to me

Edit: I need to get me a brake tool like that, the one form Machine mart is very poor at gripping the pipe to flare it
aye, you had to apply about 150nm to the fronts before the rears even BEGIN to work on mine andy, so pretty scary in the wet !
i,ll have to see if i get any dangerous lockups on the rear while steering ? but i could,nt get the back to step out under braking as yet
@Skinner_87 what percentage bias do you run on yours ?
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
aye, you had to apply about 150nm to the fronts before the rears even BEGIN to work on mine andy, so pretty scary in the wet !
i,ll have to see if i get any dangerous lockups on the rear while steering ? but i could,nt get the back to step out under braking as yet
@Skinner_87 what percentage bias do you run on yours ?
Flipping heck :/
So all those people dropping weight off the rear end of their car will only be making this problem worse
The master cylinder coupled with the cylinder/pistons used create their own bias ratio has always been my belief

60/40 is my typical ratio too Paul :)
 

frank

Club Member
Flipping heck :/
So all those people dropping weight off the rear end of their car will only be making this problem worse
The master cylinder coupled with the cylinder/pistons used create their own bias ratio has always been my belief

60/40 is my typical ratio too Paul :)
fitting big front brakes will make the bias even worse eh andy, and yes the piston size front-to-rear (48mm vs 17mm dia) have their own inherent bias ratio eh :)
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
I have opinions... Will reply. Must save expensive laptop first
64fef35180750965667aef5d5a601885.jpg
trust the woman to kill the bloody apple products. Not long ago she stood on the ipad
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Brake size is determined on the potential top speed of a car and its laden weight. The 1.6 100nx brakes are designed to stop 1.3tonnes or there abouts and a potential speed of 140 mph, so they're more than man enough to cope with a much lighter car despite its power. Being lighter will make the brakes more aggressive in the first place

Gti-R brakes are complete overkill, my opinion of them is that they create more problems than they solve, master cylinder swapping to get correct piston ratio and pedal feel (althought I vary mine to road condition not everyone is going to want to), they're so heavy too, unsprung weight is rediculous on such a light car. Nobody needs such hard braking on the public road either, even track use you're unlikely to wear the 1.6 kit out, although the 2pot Subaru calipers aren't far off a direct fit (I'll take a photo of the Nissan and Subaru caliper stud pattern) as and when I remember.

That said I searched for a lighter option, size wasnt a high on the list, if they were going to be smaller then so be it. In the end I decided to use 300mm front discs from a Renault and Willwood 4pot radial mounted calipers to be fitted next year, only need simple brackets making to mount them to suit. They'll just squeeze under a 15" wheel.. it'll still be lighter than the GTi-R setup, and before any one says "you just said you dont need such big brakes on a road car", because I know what people are like.. mine is primarily a competition car, rarely sees the general roads, with the future prospect of around 400hp and will be competing in the Time Attack series next year... I need to stop on a dime, consistenly, every time.
I wouldn't be too sure on the over kill of the GTi-R calipers, surely the larger brake setup means ur less likely to cook them? perhaps for track use they are better suited? I shall report on the the upgrade when I have a go in a few weeks. Would your explanation of weight and potential speed be only one way of measuring the brakes and attributes needed for suitable brakes? I suppose the material of the pad would a huge factor.

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/brakes/big_brakes/brake_myth_1.htm

I think if we brake from 140 to 0 in real life, we are having a brown pants moment and may be less inclined to start driving again for a while. normal car users only need to aggressively stop once I suppose as it would be an emergency stop? We would repeat the 140-40 braking game over and over in our toy cars.

I have noticed that my 2l 100nx brakes are really grabby when cold but when up to temp they respond alot smoother and dont succumb to over heating... I once set fire to a set of "race" pads for the micra lol. A better way to look at it is that the bigger brakes seem to have stable braking when heated compared to the stocks or slightly larger systems
 
Last edited:

SirChris

Educated Bodger
bias valve delete completed :) 1st impressions are an amazing difference, but time will tell

View attachment 36319
Glad someone's taken em out, they just seem a bad idea to me

Edit: I need to get me a brake tool like that, the one form Machine mart is very poor at gripping the pipe to flare it
Flipping heck :/
So all those people dropping weight off the rear end of their car will only be making this problem worse
The master cylinder coupled with the cylinder/pistons used create their own bias ratio has always been my belief

60/40 is my typical ratio too Paul :)

Removing/slamming the brake bias adjuster up to the shell is what I did to stop the axle determining my brake bias.(disconnected from the axle as well).
I really enjoyed the removal and the way the car became more stable under braking, which I feel is making better use of the disks. Although I feel the pads n disks are too small and become very hot and grabby. then changing the braking bias again i suppose.
I will be installing a brake bias adjuster when I make my new setup.
Willwood 280mm is what I am looking at in the future with all honesty. I was recommended it by someone who runs high powered micras, who is respectable enough.
Frank I found that my arse end loves coming out in the wet with the brake bias adjuster voided. Given I have larger fronts, it would suggest I would have a low amount of braking force to the rear, yet she still throws the tail. Drums vs disc?
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
did you fully remove the apportioning valve chris ? or just disconnect the arm and bind it ?
disconnect and bind frank, was worried if I removed internals it would no longer keep fluid. I should of pulled apart the blue micras one. damn
 

frank

Club Member
yes the fluid will piss out if you remove the 2 plungers mate, but you are still getting brake bias even with the plungers wedged fully in, fully removing the valve means the rear brakes get instant pressure
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
fitting big front brakes will make the bias even worse eh andy, and yes the piston size front-to-rear (48mm vs 17mm dia) have their own inherent bias ratio eh :)
Absolutely, and people arent going to want to change their master cylinders to suit, but its necessary to keep those ratios correct
 

frank

Club Member
and yes chris bigger brakes will handle more abuse, but fitting bigger fronts upsets the balance (as pointed out in that link you posted)
 
Twin pots off an mitsi fto or space wagon fit N15's as a good 280mm upgrade. Seeing as N15 brakes fit k11 I presume the same setup will bolt on to the K11 also.

I know this is for cheaper upgrades but figured it was worth a mention

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
yes the fluid will piss out if you remove the 2 plungers mate, but you are still getting brake bias even with the plungers wedged fully in, fully removing the valve means the rear brakes get instant pressure
yea figured as much. I thought I was still getting better brake pressure than I ever was before. I am making my own split system with hydro hand brake n adjustable balance.... may consider pedal box for balance bar. I wonder, how would you balance a car with extensively large brakes up front and tiny ones up back. limit the front to meet the rears on a 60/40 basis... which still leaves you will better cooler brakes or would it be pointless?
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
Removing/slamming the brake bias adjuster up to the shell is what I did to stop the axle determining my brake bias.(disconnected from the axle as well).
I really enjoyed the removal and the way the car became more stable under braking, which I feel is making better use of the disks. Although I feel the pads n disks are too small and become very hot and grabby. then changing the braking bias again i suppose.
I will be installing a brake bias adjuster when I make my new setup.
Willwood 280mm is what I am looking at in the future with all honesty. I was recommended it by someone who runs high powered micras, who is respectable enough.
Frank I found that my arse end loves coming out in the wet with the brake bias adjuster voided. Given I have larger fronts, it would suggest I would have a low amount of braking force to the rear, yet she still throws the tail. Drums vs disc?
Wilwood calipers are pretty good, I used to have a 6 pot setup on my old Celica, and loved it, so I've gone for wilwood again :) I've gone for the Renault discs because they're cheap and readily available cheaper than a bell and rotor type.

If the rears arent getting hot and grabby they might be sticking Chris?
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
and yes chris bigger brakes will handle more abuse, but fitting bigger fronts upsets the balance (as pointed out in that link you posted)
yeah, i just thought its one of those things that you will just have to handle as increasing the rear is an issue. Once suggestion however would to have custom pads made for the rear? different compounds to increase braking grab?
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Wilwood calipers are pretty good, I used to have a 6 pot setup on my old Celica, and loved it, so I've gone for wilwood again :) I've gone for the Renault discs because they're cheap and readily available cheaper than a bell and rotor type.

If the rears arent getting hot and grabby they might be sticking Chris?
sorry mate I meant that when they get hot their characteristics change. they are very small pads as is and once you get heat in to them thats it lol
 

frank

Club Member
yea figured as much. I thought I was still getting better brake pressure than I ever was before. I am making my own split system with hydro hand brake n adjustable balance.... may consider pedal box for balance bar. I wonder, how would you balance a car with extensively large brakes up front and tiny ones up back. limit the front to meet the rears on a 60/40 basis... which still leaves you will better cooler brakes or would it be pointless?
going by what i did today, the k11,s have more than enough brake bias solely from the piston diameters (inbuilt) and they dont need and inline bias valve, so if you upgrade the fronts you may need reverse bias (apparently not uncommon)
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
yea figured as much. I thought I was still getting better brake pressure than I ever was before. I am making my own split system with hydro hand brake n adjustable balance.... may consider pedal box for balance bar. I wonder, how would you balance a car with extensively large brakes up front and tiny ones up back. limit the front to meet the rears on a 60/40 basis... which still leaves you will better cooler brakes or would it be pointless?
You have 2 different master cylinders to suit the brakes Chris Larger ones for larger brakes and vice versa.
I have considered moving my redundant adv22 setup to the rear, weight isnt an issue as the back could do with it but its unsprung weight so I'm still considering

Brake ratio isnt a constant. 60/40 is what the ratio is when the brakes are first hit, held long enough the pressure will settle to 50/50
That's partially why people feela difference in braking whenthe brakes are hot as the fluid heats up
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
I know I may bang on about it, but corner weighting can help decide your ratio.

I know my car is exactly 62%F 38%R
So for a 50/50 brake balance ratio I need a 62/38 as a braking ratio :)
It gets a little more complicated than that of course but its good starting point :)
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
Absolutely, and people arent going to want to change their master cylinders to suit, but its necessary to keep those ratios correct
lies I am looking for one as we speak.
going by what i did today, the k11,s have more than enough brake bias solely from the piston diameters (inbuilt) and they dont need and inline bias valve, so if you upgrade the fronts you may need reverse bias (apparently not uncommon)
I know it sounds stupid but I cannot picture reverse bias, unless I am correct in thinking you dull the fronts instead of the rear?
You have 2 different master cylinders to suit the brakes Chris Larger ones for larger brakes and vice versa.
I have considered moving my redundant adv22 setup to the rear, weight isnt an issue as the back could do with it but its unsprung weight so I'm still considering

Brake ratio isnt a constant. 60/40 is what the ratio is when the brakes are first hit, held long enough the pressure will settle to 50/50
That's partially why people feela difference in braking whenthe brakes are hot as the fluid heats up
yeah appropriate master cylinders should help push me towards the correct bias I believe, but still I am limited to the rears being soo diddy. need to get a rear axle made
 

pollyp

Club Member
I once wrote this very rough analogy of the braking system last year that compares it to pouring water in a leaking bucket:

choosing the appropriate braking system is all about heat management (turning kinetic energy into heat) making sure it has the capacity to withstand the max amount of abuse it'll experience in its operating environment.

depends on alot of factors such as weight, power, application, operating temperature window of the pads and dissipation rate of the discs and is quite a complex science so won't go into it much, and this is purely imo & top of me head so don't take this as actual fact.

more weight = more potential energy
more power/speed = more kinetic energy
more braking pressure = higher rate of kinetic energy transformed into heat
more frequent application of brakes (such as on track with loadsa corners and minimal cooling periods or downhill) = higher rate of heat energy thrown at the discs to dissipate

totaling all the factors above gives us the max heat energy the brakes have to handle

an analogy I can think of is like pouring water into a leaking bucket:

height of bucket =operating temperature window of the pads
height of water = temperature
overflow = fading pads
middle of bucket = optimum pad temperature for max coefficient of friction
volume of bucket = heat soak capacity of system
size of hole = rate of heat dissipation
volume of the pouring bucket = weight
height of the pouring bucket = power/speed
rate of pouring = braking pressure
frequency of pouring = frequency of braking

http://micra.org.uk/threads/big-brakes.56062/#post-589707
 

frank

Club Member
I know I may bang on about it, but corner weighting can help decide your ratio.

I know my car is exactly 62%F 38%R
So for a 50/50 brake balance ratio I need a 62/38 as a braking ratio :)
It gets a little more complicated than that of course but its good starting point :)
yeh, and you have to take into account weight transfer, a stock k11 will nosedive if you slam the brakes on and that transfers a lot of weight to the front, our cars are a lot more squat.
i was always outbraked bigtime on trackdays, and put that down to my skinny tyres, i,m beginning to wonder if it was more down to the poor brake balance
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
yeh, and you have to take into account weight transfer, a stock k11 will nosedive if you slam the brakes on and that transfers a lot of weight to the front, our cars are a lot more squat.
i was always outbraked bigtime on trackdays, and put that down to my skinny tyres, i,m beginning to wonder if it was more down to the poor brake balance
You'd reduce your braking efficiency under hard braking for sure if you're nose diving, if you can keep the load over the tyre as similar as possible the whole time everything will be more consistent :)

Less nose dive = less weight transferred = less braking effort require = stop faster
Of course you can go too far stopping the nosedive and directly load the tyres with the weight transfer and break traction, that's where our suspension comes in :)
Tis why I love suspension, the complexity is never ending
 

h701micra

Deactivated Account
lies I am looking for one as we speak.

yeah appropriate master cylinders should help push me towards the correct bias I believe, but still I am limited to the rears being soo diddy. need to get a rear axle made
The addition of your bias valve will help you correct your brake bias :)
You'll also be able to tweak it to your preference

Primera cylinders arent a bad choice :)
 

SirChris

Educated Bodger
yeh, and you have to take into account weight transfer, a stock k11 will nosedive if you slam the brakes on and that transfers a lot of weight to the front, our cars are a lot more squat.
i was always outbraked bigtime on trackdays, and put that down to my skinny tyres, i,m beginning to wonder if it was more down to the poor brake balance
I noticed that frank... Just reverted mine back to stock suspension on the daily and was saying to Enuo that the car felt it had more grip than the turbo ever had... Bit twitchy due to being so soft, but loading up the front felt that it actually helps plant the tyres.
 
Top