Bike throttle bodies

karlj

karlj

I have far to much time on my hands when I'm meant to be working..... anywho I've got thinking how hard would it be to fit and setup motorbike throttle bodies and get them working well? Would you need to splice the bikes wiring loom into the k11's to run them off the k11 ecu or would you need to run two separate ecu's? or even a completely new loom and stand alone ecu

Like I said I have to much time on my hands :laugh:
 
karlj said:
I have far to much time on my hands when I'm meant to be working..... anywho I've got thinking how hard would it be to fit and setup motorbike throttle bodies and get them working well? Would you need to splice the bikes wiring loom into the k11's to run them off the k11 ecu or would you need to run two separate ecu's? or even a completely new loom and stand alone ecu

Like I said I have to much time on my hands :laugh:
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Just use carbs then there's no arsing around with ecus
 
carbs would be a backward step imo, you could cut-n-shut a CG mani and use the nissan injectors (and loom/ecu) of your choice, but you would need to rig up a maf and tps tho

 

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I don't actually have any intention of doing it it was more a discussion kinda thing..... personally I think it would be a really good performance upgrade having independent throttle bodies, well that's given considering companies like jenvey

But I think where most people would fall is the wiring and setting up
 
frank said:
carbs would be a backward step imo, you could cut-n-shut a CG mani and use the nissan injectors (and loom/ecu) of your choice, but you would need to rig up a maf and tps tho

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That's why I suggested it Frank unless there's a bolt on kit available it won't be very fun getting it built up! If you were going to consider it, what about the pulsar manifold? Aren't they equipped with ITBs??
 
gtsnissanb said:
That's why I suggested it Frank unless there's a bolt on kit available it won't be very fun getting it built up! If you were going to consider it, what about the pulsar manifold? Aren't they equipped with ITBs??
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yeah they have itb's i flogged one to a mate in newcastle for a ga16de i think the port spacing was quite different but there agen ports on the ga are different from cg's arn't they? nothing a welder and a saw cant sort lol. plus if you keep the plenum you can run a maf anyway. and gtir's are top feed injectors so plenty of choice for injectors.
 
Suzuki GSX600R bike throttle bodies are almost a direct match for the K11 making an inlet manifold quite straight forward. I think Bogg Brothers have made quite a few in their time for rally Micras running carbs such as FCR 39 or 41's.

GSXR's will come with a fuel rail, injectors and tps. The injectors are already big enough, (230cc I think). Some simple mods to remove the upper throttle plates and plug the holes and they are good. 38mm OD will also give a good balance of power and response.

Either way the clincher for most people is the cost involved in getting it all working.
 
how would running the carbs and then standard injectors work though? as the carbs feed the fuel anyway although it would be an amzing delivery of air but maybe bigger injectors to compensate! but i can see why running bike throttle bodies could be simpler duee to the tuning hassle of the carbs! but just getting the wiring correct for there being 4 mafs etc or am i wrong?

im thinking it would be a case of using tbs with stand alone maf etc to keep them running sweeter
 
Unless you run them through a common plenum with a MAF you will need an ecu which will handle speed/load Alpha-N mapping.
 
will930 said:
how would running the carbs and then standard injectors work though? as the carbs feed the fuel anyway although it would be an amzing delivery of air but maybe bigger injectors to compensate! but i can see why running bike throttle bodies could be simpler duee to the tuning hassle of the carbs! but just getting the wiring correct for there being 4 mafs etc or am i wrong?

im thinking it would be a case of using tbs with stand alone maf etc to keep them running sweeter
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The pulsars run through a plenum I may have a spare s14 sr plenum but you'd need to modify it to accept TBs so you'd be better getting one made up
 
Im running cbr900rrs honda carbs on a CG13 which run fine once the 4 carbs are synch'd togeather.... they were stripped by BoggBrothers & re jetted to suit and i can say there is far more power there with a better throttle response as bike carbs are CV so fueling if smoothed out that way... although running megajolt with a MAP/TPS say would give better results
 
Are you managing to run that with the stock ecu running the ignition? I knew of one guy running FCR 41's on a rally car but that was running on one of the old Pectel T2 ecus.

Would be interesting to see the dyno readout on that setup. I am sure there is plenty more power. Even though the general assumption is carbs are a backward step, anything is an improvement over the standard plenum! We packed on plenty of power & torque when we switched to Jenveys.
 
Low Rider said:
Are you managing to run that with the stock ecu running the ignition? I knew of one guy running FCR 41's on a rally car but that was running on one of the old Pectel T2 ecus.

Would be interesting to see the dyno readout on that setup. I am sure there is plenty more power. Even though the general assumption is carbs are a backward step, anything is an improvement over the standard plenum! We packed on plenty of power & torque when we switched to Jenveys.
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Yes original ecu & ignition with everything for the MAF/TPS/ injectors removed its just advanced by 19degrees. Id have loved a set of Jenveys but there a little out of my budget! lol unfortunatly the island i live on hasnt any rolling road but im hoping to get a read out (which il post up) once a few more bits have been changed. It pulls well up to 115 in 5th but then touches the limiter
 
I only swapped to Jenveys because a complete set popped up forsale from someone who ordered a set through NME back in the 90's and then they sat in a shed for 13years. They were too good to pass up and made future tuning options very beneficial to us.

I hardly use 5th, (soon to change with the nex gearbox). We rev out in 4th @7250rpm but 5th is just too long a gear to effectively use. I am sure it would be a different case if we were on stock steelies and skinnier tyres as we are paying the price by running 195 profiles and a larger rolling radius wheel......they really slow a car down in terms of ultimate top speed.

That's is interesting that it works ok with the stock ecu. It would be good to see what happens to the timing with respect to rpm. I would assume if the TPS was hooked up the ECU could in theory see load. It would be valuable information to datalog via a consult cable and software to see what is going on on that sort of setup with respect to timing.
 
Thanks Skinner, that looks great and the sound must be really impressive too :)

I'd love to understand more of what Low Rider talks about but even so always feels like I'm being educated lol

Pepper
 
Low Rider said:
I only swapped to Jenveys because a complete set popped up forsale from someone who ordered a set through NME back in the 90's and then they sat in a shed for 13years. They were too good to pass up and made future tuning options very beneficial to us.

I hardly use 5th, (soon to change with the nex gearbox). We rev out in 4th @7250rpm but 5th is just too long a gear to effectively use. I am sure it would be a different case if we were on stock steelies and skinnier tyres as we are paying the price by running 195 profiles and a larger rolling radius wheel......they really slow a car down in terms of ultimate top speed.

That's is interesting that it works ok with the stock ecu. It would be good to see what happens to the timing with respect to rpm. I would assume if the TPS was hooked up the ECU could in theory see load. It would be valuable information to datalog via a consult cable and software to see what is going on on that sort of setup with respect to timing.
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That had crossed me mind low rider if i can incorporate the stock tb to open the butterfly value in sync with the carbs to see if the ecu would adjust the ignition accordingly, it wouldnt be perfect but may help.

As iv got a 5.1 crown wheel fitted i find im up into 5th quite quickly. (1st is nearly obselete!) I still have the stock rev limmit fitted (6500?) so i may raise that especialy as it does not seem to come on cam until 4k.... there does seem to be a lul in power from 3k to 4k @ around 70mph more than anywere else in the rev range so a tweak here on the ignition could prove useful!

If i can get my hands on a consult cable i will deffinatly post up the results!
 
Skinner_87 said:
That had crossed me mind low rider if i can incorporate the stock tb to open the butterfly value in sync with the carbs to see if the ecu would adjust the ignition accordingly, it wouldnt be perfect but may help.

As iv got a 5.1 crown wheel fitted i find im up into 5th quite quickly. (1st is nearly obselete!) I still have the stock rev limmit fitted (6500?) so i may raise that especialy as it does not seem to come on cam until 4k.... there does seem to be a lul in power from 3k to 4k @ around 70mph more than anywere else in the rev range so a tweak here on the ignition could prove useful!

If i can get my hands on a consult cable i will deffinatly post up the results!
Click to expand...

your ecu will only be getting rpm signals for the spark map eh (and no load input without maf and tps :eek:)
 
frank said:
your ecu will only be getting rpm signals for the spark map eh (and no load input without maf and tps :eek:)
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Cheers Frank, i hadnt realised you needed both... im considering moving to megajolt but as its running ok as it is im happy :) if the ecu ran Nisstune could i change the spark map even though theres no maf/ tps reading you think?
 
Skinner_87 said:
Cheers Frank, i hadnt realised you needed both... im considering moving to megajolt but as its running ok as it is im happy :) if the ecu ran Nisstune could i change the spark map even though theres no maf/ tps reading you think?
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i guess you could change it, but it will still only be a 2 dimensional map surely ? (deg/rpm) and it wont have the load retard (like the old vacuum advance system but more sophisticated)
 
If you use megajolt then map or tps ( not sure if you can use both in the new version?) are used to indicate the load. Map is the best option as it shows actual load where as tps only indicates throttle position.

I've been running Megajolt on my mini since 2005 and I can't fault it.
 
l_jonez said:
If you use megajolt then map or tps ( not sure if you can use both in the new version?) are used to indicate the load. Map is the best option as it shows actual load where as tps only indicates throttle position.

I've been running Megajolt on my mini since 2005 and I can't fault it.
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Id been told the same that the map sensor would be best I_jonez and the kits arnt a bad price! did you find it quite easy to set up? As im not aware of a map for a micra thats downloadable for it but was thinking a mini map cannot be that far off
 
It's pretty simple to fit if you can solder a few wires and knock up a few brackets. And setting up is relatively easy, there's a default map which will get you started and probably won't be far off.

Theres a few mini maps around you'll probably find one for a 1380cc will be close
 
karlj said:
Would bike carbs be worth it on my ga14?
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bit of a lump the mera's karl. imo you would be better fitting the ga16 crank and getting loads of head work done. then it would be cheaper to fit the sr lol. why don't you look at getting a n14 sunny gti? the one i had wooped a tuned mera gti with ease the insurance aint that bad on them. just gotta get a good one (Y)
 
sr20bud said:
bit of a lump the mera's karl. imo you would be better fitting the ga16 crank and getting loads of head work done. then it would be cheaper to fit the sr lol. why don't you look at getting a n14 sunny gti? the one i had wooped a tuned mera gti with ease the insurance aint that bad on them. just gotta get a good one (Y)
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Would love a sunny gti just don't have the money for one, I much prefer the n14 to the n15... and I couldn't of said it better myself the ga is such a #### engine far to heavy for the car
 
karlj said:
Would love a sunny gti just don't have the money for one, I much prefer the n14 to the n15... and I couldn't of said it better myself the ga is such a #### engine far to heavy for the car
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it would be worth turboing. i had a 1.4 n14 before the gti which i turbo'd for less than a hundred quid scrap yard modding ftw! :laugh: you would just need to get around the maf issue. why dont you look into getting paul smiths super charger that he's just advertised? think he only wants a ton for it. wouldn't take much to knock some brackets up and its easier than turboing.
 
I know this is a super old thread but i've just been reading a lot in here about Engine Management, sensors etc.

How can you run without MAF sensor? My car barely runs when i disconnect it, if at all. I can run my TPS but the MAF is a pain in the rear, means i need a plenum.

Anyone still know the info and still use the forum? Lol.

Failing that i'll look at aftermarket management, can anyone advise a total novice on where to begin?
 
Revmau5 said:
I know this is a super old thread but i've just been reading a lot in here about Engine Management, sensors etc.

How can you run without MAF sensor? My car barely runs when i disconnect it, if at all. I can run my TPS but the MAF is a pain in the rear, means i need a plenum.

Anyone still know the info and still use the forum? Lol.

Failing that i'll look at aftermarket management, can anyone advise a total novice on where to begin?
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This to run on the factory ECU mate?

You will need a MAF for that, otherwise most people run standalone ECU's with a crank senor & TPS or MAP
 
Skinner_87 said: ↑
That had crossed me mind low rider if i can incorporate the stock tb to open the butterfly value in sync with the carbs to see if the ecu would adjust the ignition accordingly, it wouldnt be perfect but may help.

As iv got a 5.1 crown wheel fitted i find im up into 5th quite quickly. (1st is nearly obselete!) I still have the stock rev limmit fitted (6500?) so i may raise that especialy as it does not seem to come on cam until 4k.... there does seem to be a lul in power from 3k to 4k @ around 70mph more than anywere else in the rev range so a tweak here on the ignition could prove useful!

If i can get my hands on a consult cable i will deffinatly post up the results!​
(frank) your ecu will only be getting rpm signals for the spark map eh (and no load input without maf and tps :eek:)

Sorry to resuscitate...

I've been back reading on some of these. How can you all run without a MAF? On my throttle body setup on my dead micra my car wouldnt even start with the MAF unplugged, or plugged but not in the inlet stream!! - WHY!???? Beside the obvious, i guess what i'm asking is how come some people can manage. Am i an imbecile?
​
 
I can run without a MAF as im on carbs not boddies mate :)

Standard ECU controls the spark (bog standard limp home mode i guess), jets do the fuel job done
 
...wait, more importantly - what IS my cheapest method for not requiring a MAF?

Go for a totally standalone unit? What are prices and work like etc?

Remember this is totally experimental so spending telephone numbers only to find it makes no difference that using a plenum and MAF in place...i'd be heartbroken...
 
Revmau5 said:
Skinner_87 said: ↑​
That had crossed me mind low rider if i can incorporate the stock tb to open the butterfly value in sync with the carbs to see if the ecu would adjust the ignition accordingly, it wouldnt be perfect but may help.​
​
As iv got a 5.1 crown wheel fitted i find im up into 5th quite quickly. (1st is nearly obselete!) I still have the stock rev limmit fitted (6500?) so i may raise that especialy as it does not seem to come on cam until 4k.... there does seem to be a lul in power from 3k to 4k @ around 70mph more than anywere else in the rev range so a tweak here on the ignition could prove useful!​
​
If i can get my hands on a consult cable i will deffinatly post up the results!​
(frank) your ecu will only be getting rpm signals for the spark map eh (and no load input without maf and tps :eek:)
​
Sorry to resuscitate...​
​
I've been back reading on some of these. How can you all run without a MAF? On my throttle body setup on my dead micra my car wouldnt even start with the MAF unplugged, or plugged but not in the inlet stream!! - WHY!???? Beside the obvious, i guess what i'm asking is how come some people can manage. Am i an imbecile?​
​
Click to expand...
Ed was on about the 3D spark map here eh http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/bike-carbs-v-throttle-bodies.25381/
 
Eugh. Bloody expensive.
Either way - my MK2 backyard throttle body build is finished. All i require is a DIY Airbox for the MAF, and Filter. Plus some tinkering to get it to fit. I'll have this done today if it stays dry and pics will be uploaded.
No idea if it'll work. No idea if it'll show any gains. No clue. Trial and error right?

I've made it by cutting down the original manifold and resizing the GPZ1100 throttle bodies into line, using the original fuel rail. It's very compact, very neat - and possible with basic hand tools.
I'll try and get it to a rolling road at somepoint to see how that goes but for now i'm off to finish these and i'll be back later. :)
 
l_jonez said:
probably looking at 500 minumum
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Yeah, £500 would be about right for a mega/microsquirt setup assuming most of the work is done by the owner with final mapping tweeks on the dyno. Omex, Emerald, DTA would easily be double that for a base ecu model depending again on how much work was done by the owner.
 

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