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1400 rally car shenanigans

If such a part exists for the micra it would be an easy fix, it might be worth asking Matt Humphries or other micra parts specialists if something is available or which other makes or models have the same taper, I was trying to imagine some sort of screw on extender but there's not much room available and I think it would be weak.
I was just looking and it appears there are no other models that use the Micra ball joint, so it might be a tough search.
There are only Humphris Arms at £500+ I believe for 2. For the NME Kit Cars.

I was developing one a while ago that rid the arm of the angle of the ball joint. Meaning you'd not affect roll centre until the passes the horizontal point which would be the limit anyway
More favourably though is correcting bump steer as they suffer from it a fair even with minor changes
 
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Huggy444
So I decided to fit a new rear bumper as the old one had seen its fair share of abuse, and the mud flaps had pulled through etc...
How it looked:


Bumper I was fitting, had some damage so I thought I'd cut it out and make it look extra rally car to remove some of the bigger scratches etc


Got it cut and popped on, then pop rivetted on the mud flap brackets etc etc



Didn't like the grey/silver tow hook etc behind the bumper so painted it all black, then highlited the tow hook in red - even saved all of about 5p by using the 'tow' sticker from the old bumper :p Also touched up all the little scuffs on the bumper.




Quite like the look of it, still got a new boot and spoiler to go on so hopefully the rear end should start to look more 'racey' soon.
 
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Huggy444
Also popped in some new brake pads after struggling with brake fade on the last few rallies (Yes, my brake saga continues)....
Got myself some Mintex M1155's which are their high temp brake pads, should be brill for racing but crap on road.

Removed the old Mintex M1144's, and my god they're shagged!
Only done a trackday and one rally


Cracked and flaking, not a good pad.
Hopefully these new ones will do the trick - If not I'll get some grooved high quality discs and even higher temp race fluid (Currently use 5.1). I want to see how far the standard caliper and non vented discs can be pushed.

Also noticed that the big 14" Nangkang NS2R's have rubbed the hell out of my wheel arches - I still run one wheel arch liner on the driver side to protect the washer bottle tank, but the arch liner is ruined now. I've bodged a quick guard to protect the tank for the time being, I'll probably make up an ally bracket at some point.

 

pollyp

Club Member
If such a part exists for the micra it would be an easy fix, it might be worth asking Matt Humphries or other micra parts specialists if something is available or which other makes or models have the same taper, I was trying to imagine some sort of screw on extender but there's not much room available and I think it would be weak.
I was just looking and it appears there are no other models that use the Micra ball joint, so it might be a tough search.
I was thinking of a screw-on type extender too to fix my roll center but just haven't the time & money to get round to it
 

pollyp

Club Member
I always copy files to desktop, drag files into the reply box to upload onto MSC server (paid member) and then insert each pic into reply.
 
I was thinking of a screw-on type extender too to fix my roll center but just haven't the time & money to get round to it
That was my first thought as well, the troubles I see with it is that:
  • the taper and thread part go up quite high so you might be starting the higher taper(into the hub) before the top of the threaded section making it thin and weak.
  • How do you tighten the extender onto the ball joint as you'd want it to pull down tight on the taper. How would you get it off?
  • Locking; there's a hole for a split pin at the top of the threaded section, if you were to drill through the extender to use this, it would weaken the part.
  • I think the load on these parts would be significant so then materials choice becomes important and goes into areas I have no idea about.
Instead of making it look like a ball joint with a extended stud perhaps making it look like extending the hub downwards to the ball joint. Essentially trying to do the same thing (fit tapers etc) but with more material surrounding and supporting the part.

I think the first thing would be to work out how far the stud / hub needs to be extended, (you'll have to do this my micra gave it's engine to my mini so sits high not low :))
Knowing how far it needs to go would give a better idea of what we're working with.

The ball joint comes out of the arm doesn't it? but if I remember it's not easy? press fit or some such.

I can sort of imagine a 2 piece part that might work but it would adjust the height of the bit the ball joint bolts to and the nut as a minimum, which I suspect is a bit too much height.
 
I was thinking of a screw-on type extender too to fix my roll center but just haven't the time & money to get round to it
That was my first thought as well, the troubles I see with it is that:
  • the taper and thread part go up quite high so you might be starting the higher taper(into the hub) before the top of the threaded section making it thin and weak.
  • How do you tighten the extender onto the ball joint as you'd want it to pull down tight on the taper. How would you get it off?
  • Locking; there's a hole for a split pin at the top of the threaded section, if you were to drill through the extender to use this, it would weaken the part.
  • I think the load on these parts would be significant so then materials choice becomes important and goes into areas I have no idea about.
Instead of making it look like a ball joint with a extended stud perhaps making it look like extending the hub downwards to the ball joint. Essentially trying to do the same thing (fit tapers etc) but with more material surrounding and supporting the part.

I think the first thing would be to work out how far the stud / hub needs to be extended, (you'll have to do this my micra gave it's engine to my mini so sits high not low :))
Knowing how far it needs to go would give a better idea of what we're working with.

The ball joint comes out of the arm doesn't it? but if I remember it's not easy? press fit or some such.

I can sort of imagine a 2 piece part that might work but it would adjust the height of the bit the ball joint bolts to and the nut as a minimum, which I suspect is a bit too much height.
A screw on extender on a wishbone considering the loads they're under is dangerous.
A different wishbone design that doesn't alter RC when lower is the way to do it

An extender per se on a track rod would be somewhat suitable but would be a very heavy item

A lower roll centre isn't the issue here. The distance from centre of mass to roll centre is the issue
Increasing that difference increases leverage hence increasing roll.
With a corrected wishbone and bumpsteer. It makes sense to lower the CoG
 
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A screw on extender on a wishbone considering the loads they're under is dangerous.
Agreed, and problematic hence the points in my post above.
The idea I have is more of a spacer / extender on the bottom of the hub than a ball joint extender(I'm not trying to be tricky with language here, honest), I'm still thinking about it though but I'll get a picture up, whether it's up to it is beyond my understanding so I'd love some help there.

A different wishbone design that doesn't alter RC when lower is the way to do it
Does such a wishbone exist? the line used to calculate the roll centre is one intersecting the pivots; on the chassis and the ball joint the shape size etc of the wishbone seems irrelevant, we need to move 1 or more of those pivots.
There's only 3 front suspension designs I can think of that don't change roll centre when lowered, trailing arm, solid axle, and swing axle... there's probably obscure others as well..

An extender per se on a track rod would be somewhat suitable but would be a very heavy item
Playing with the rack / track rod would effect bumpsteer wouldn't it but I don't see it (yet) doing anything to roll centre.

A lower roll centre isn't the issue here. The distance from centre of mass to roll centre is the issue
Increasing that difference increases leverage hence increasing roll.
With a corrected wishbone and bumpsteer. It makes sense to lower the CoG
I'm more familiar with the mini's suspension (I'm more interested in the micra engine for my mini) but I do like to learn and understand, I'm taking it from Paul that the roll centre needs to be raised, considering lowering will alter the angle of the wishbone to now point say level or down and this will lower the roll centre (consistent with articles and theory already listed). The centre of gravity may have been lowered as a result of lowering the car but not as much as the roll centre.
As such the roll moment or the distance between the roll centre and the centre of gravity actually increases as you lower the car. As the centre of gravity is relatively fixed (unless you make new engine mounts to lower the engine etc) we come back to raising the roll centre to reduce the roll moment.
It always makes sense to lower the centre of gravity from the point of view of road holding doesn't it?

Is bumpsteer only a problem on lowered micras or all of them? How much bumpsteer has it got?
 
Agreed, and problematic hence the points in my post above.
The idea I have is more of a spacer / extender on the bottom of the hub than a ball joint extender(I'm not trying to be tricky with language here, honest), I'm still thinking about it though but I'll get a picture up, whether it's up to it is beyond my understanding so I'd love some help there.


Does such a wishbone exist? the line used to calculate the roll centre is one intersecting the pivots; on the chassis and the ball joint the shape size etc of the wishbone seems irrelevant, we need to move 1 or more of those pivots.
There's only 3 front suspension designs I can think of that don't change roll centre when lowered, trailing arm, solid axle, and swing axle... there's probably obscure others as well..

Playing with the rack / track rod would effect bumpsteer wouldn't it but I don't see it (yet) doing anything to roll centre.


I'm more familiar with the mini's suspension (I'm more interested in the micra engine for my mini) but I do like to learn and understand, I'm taking it from Paul that the roll centre needs to be raised, considering lowering will alter the angle of the wishbone to now point say level or down and this will lower the roll centre (consistent with articles and theory already listed). The centre of gravity may have been lowered as a result of lowering the car but not as much as the roll centre.
As such the roll moment or the distance between the roll centre and the centre of gravity actually increases as you lower the car. As the centre of gravity is relatively fixed (unless you make new engine mounts to lower the engine etc) we come back to raising the roll centre to reduce the roll moment.
It always makes sense to lower the centre of gravity from the point of view of road holding doesn't it?

Is bumpsteer only a problem on lowered micras or all of them? How much bumpsteer has it got?
Don't worry I understand where you're coming from with hub part simply put after 5 seconds thought. A block with machines taper, with an open box section for a traditional wishbone to mount to.
At the minute no such wishbone exists. Hence trying to reinvent the wheel on it but you're quite right on calculating roll centre
The angle of the wishbone forces the hub higher by around 15-20mm than if it were straight. So this would lower the car, correct the ball joint geometry and allow the suspension to be raised without the car going up. I hope that makes sense. Almost like extending wishbone with actually extending it

No bump steer isn't apart of roll centre but I'm used to calculating it as a whole. Without looking at my notes I can't answer. But different racks act differently. Standard ones aren't bad. Lower you go the worse it gets. Same for most of this design. As for rear that's a different kettle of fish again but as long as it's higher than the front and the correct roll axis is maintained it will be fine

Yup, if you can lower the centre you're doing well. But the above wishbone would achieve it all in 1 piece as the car remains lower, with a better roll centre to CoG distance
 

Antony

Ex. Club Member
Roll centre adjustmet kits usually consist of longer ball joints and longer track rod ends.

The ball joints are usually bolted to bottom arms in other cars though....

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
 
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Huggy444
Abingdon Carnival Rally 2016

A frustrating days racing!
Where do I start... I'd rebled the system with fresh 5.1 fluid, mintex race pads and new discs and bedded it all in as per manufacturers instructions. The fresh fluid is now Brown (burnt it) and pads caught fire on the last stage

Damaged the front end again when the brakes decided to give up, only just fixed the poor car.

And to top it all off, i was seeded 99 out of 100 cars due to an issue with my entry form - we jumped up 50 places in two stages though so not bad!

Due to it being a far hotter day than I expected, my soft compound Kumho C03's disintegrated in front of my eyes and I ended up running road tyres!

Ended up 44th overall and 5th in a class of 17 so could have been worse, but a very annoying day!
 

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MaxK11C

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Abingdon Carnival Rally 2016

A frustrating days racing!
Where do I start... I'd rebled the system with fresh 5.1 fluid, mintex race pads and new discs and bedded it all in as per manufacturers instructions. The fresh fluid is now Brown (burnt it) and pads caught fire on the last stage

Damaged the front end again when the brakes decided to give up, only just fixed the poor car.

And to top it all off, i was seeded 99 out of 100 cars due to an issue with my entry form - we jumped up 50 places in two stages though so not bad!

Due to it being a far hotter day than I expected, my soft compound Kumho C03's disintegrated in front of my eyes and I ended up running road tyres!

Ended up 44th overall and 5th in a class of 17 so could have been worse, but a very annoying day!
Oh dear!!
Had a little giggle I must confess.
Hope you get it all sorted
 
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Huggy444
Oh dear!!
Had a little giggle I must confess.
Hope you get it all sorted
Looking back at the day, it is fairly funny how the day started badly and ended as badly haha :p

Saved up enough now to just buy a whole new brake setup from Humphries (master cylinder and all)
 

SuperUno

Buy & Sell Member
Did you find out the part number of the Humphris m/c ?

Good result considering, abingdon is always tough on brakes.
 
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Huggy444
Haven't found a part number yet :/ Humphries obviously won't tell me a number so I can't find what master cylinder he uses (I assume it's some primera/almera thing).

I still have the 100nx callipers sitting around so will rebuild them, and get a new master cylinder (hopefully uprated) and brake booster as well as braided lines.
May as well just refresh the hole system, fed up of brake issues now!
 
I'd put my money on it being a primera MC. Shares similar properties to an early Skyline MC I use (skyline has a slightly larger bore for more fluid per mm of travel)
 
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Huggy444
The primera mc I purchased doesn't fit to standard brake booster (his does iirc)
Could be another generation one I guess, but I've bought two master cylinders and two sets of callipers now... Not wasting time, just going to order through him
 
Dam dude
Well if you're not in a rush I'll get a part code off mine
Orrr ask Skinner. He uses a similar MC to me last week spoke about it
 
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Huggy444
If you're MC has four brake line outputs, could you measure the distance between the two bolts holding it onto the booster?

I've messages skinner, just awaiting a reply :)
 
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Huggy444
Loads of stuff to update on this blog!

I'll start off with the brakes

I decided to bite the bullet and just spend silly money on a Humprhies uprated master cylinder, yes it's expensive however it will do what I need and seeing as my original master cylinder is shot I may as well get an upgraded one to replace it.
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Yep, it looks nice and the bolting holes and brake pipe inlet bits have been machined and altered to fit the micra - Glad i didnt try and buy one as Im not really capable of doing this fancy machining work.

Fitted it all up, needed to alter some brake lines and I remade another line - looks 'funky' but it hasn't leaked yet so alls good
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And just a picture to show the state of the standard 1.0 brakes I was running, after just one race on these discs Id caused many micro-cracks and it had gone blue - The car was just too powerful I guess for the small standard brakes.

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So although there were no leaks in the system, the pedal travel was very very short but it seemed ok so I drove it anyway..... Onto Japshow!
 
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Huggy444
Japshow

Drove the car all the way there no issues, missed the convoy in as I was busy in the morning selling the k10 to some lovely french lady......

Got there, said hello to most people, wondered why most of the people there were 17, behaved like twats and drove naff cars but then figured thats just most K11 oweners wooooo

Chatted to the usual bunch of nice micra owners and then had a few drinks and chilled :)

Did the 1/4 mile on the saturday, was running 16.6's if I recall correctly, so nothing spectacular buuuuut I suspect the fuel pump relay was playing up and the brakes were binding ( Read on....). Paul ran a 14.8 second 1/4 which was just awesome, left a mates is200 turbo for dead!

Also did the podkhana/handling circuit on the Sunday, had a good laugh and as per usual Dmitri (or however its spelt) won :p

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Anyway.... On the way home, after about 10 mins of driving I smelt brake smoke and noticed the car was slowing quickly when coasting, got really bad so I pulled over to see smoke pouring from the pads. Pulled in and called the AA, may as well make use of my recovery policy haha! By the time the guy arrived the brakes were free again making me suspect the master cylinder was at fault, expanding slightly when hot and putting pressure onto the pads.

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Anyway, got it home and took the master cylinder off to adjust the push rod in the brake booster/servo - wound it all the way in so now the pedal feels brilliant. I also decided to file the edge of the pads slightly (the tabs where they sit in the carrier) annoyingly the camera wouldnt focus, but the pads now moved freely.
Put it all back together and the car ran smoothly even after a fair drive - fingers crossed for the rally at Twyford
 
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Huggy444
Twyford Wood Stages Rally 2016

Before I go any further, this rally was on a day of nigh on 30 degree weather, aka I was hot as fook throughout the day and not always thinking properly!
I never have a service crew, it's just me and my co-driver who both know a little about cars so as soon as the stage is over we jump out and try to fix it - Meaning in hot weather its a hard hard day!

First stage I was worried about the brakes but they turned out to be brilliant, however we were having issues with the car randomly cutting out for a few seconds and turning back on again. After the first few stages, even with our issues we were first in class which was surprising.
To fix the stuttering I started by looking at the fuel pump, popped the cover off and one plug was loose so I cleaned all the dirt out and it clicked positively in place - problem solved I thought, but no!

Another stage later and the brakes felt soft so I whipped the wheel off and found that one brake calliper nut (the ones you take out to change the pads) had fallen out and the other loose so the calliper was moving instead of squeezing the pad, a frantic look later and luckily I had a spare bolt - brakes felt fine again.

Stage 4 - the car cut out mid stage and I had no tools with me, I simply pulled over and waited till the end of the stage to get towed back in :(

Luckily it was lunch now so I had an hour and a half to fix whatever was wrong.
There was no voltage getting to the pump itself so i suspected the relay was gone and sure enough it was so i bridged it and the car was fine (however this took me ages to find out and by this time it was after stage 6!!!!)

Got back in the car and my god it was flying, car felt massively fast and the stage times were brilliant - we should have, and would have, lead the class by miles but I didn't :p


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So we ended up 4th in a class of 10, and 24th out of 74 starters - not bad at all!
If i hadn't broken down and got a stage maximum (cost me 7 minutes) I would have lead the class by 3.5 minutes but oh well, I was just happy to finish.
 
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Huggy444
Repairs

The car is now, in laymans terms, shagged. Needs lots of work - uprated clutch, headlight replacement, rust repairs (bulkhead), new sumpgaurd, alignment, full bolt check, brakes bleeding, the list goes on....!

The rally was very rough, lots of jumps and very hard landings as well as lots of gravel rash to fix up.

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As you can see, I boiled power steering fluid, the brake fluid and generally got dust everywhere so jet washed the bay down. Also cleaned the air filter out as it was clogged with lots of dust from the event!

Burnt through a tyre on the last stage, my camber was set far too high for gravel tyres so that's a mistake I wont make again as these tyres aren't cheap! You can see how the tyre should look, we were lucky to get to the end without puncturing.
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Huggy444
Been doing more work on the micra before the Vale of York rally this weekend...

Had to reshape the underbody guards as they were touching the gearstick (stopping me getting 5th/reverse) and also rattling on the exhaust. Still rattles a bit on the zorst' but I can get all gears now which is good.

New CV boots on the front as well.
Brakes bled and bolt checked etc

New maxsport rb3 fitted as well, in 175/50/13 trim. These are a load bigger than I thought and I'm definitely going to be unintentionally rolling the arches this weekend with these tyres :( should grip well though!
 
So this weekend me and my dad started to strip out 'Dickie'.....
Got boot linings etc out easily enough, then came the struggle of removing the rear seats and seat belts :(
Took atleast 3hrs to remove 6 bolts which finally resulted in a walk to a neighbours to borrow a breaker bar.
Then found shedloads of glass to be removed..... Can only guess the window was broken at some point
Piccies:

Weird, when I took my rear seat off I also found glass. Very strange considering the previous owner would have been really careful. Maybe this is a common thing?
 
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Huggy444
Vale Of York Stages - 10 stages, 11th September
Ryan Watkins Navigating.

Really good day, car had no problems at all except from the brakes boiling and fading still - Annoying after everything I've done. Going to relocate the washer bottle and make cold air feeds as well as new pads and braided lines.

Anyway, we were seeded 3rd in class 1 (Upto 1400cc) out of 10 cars and 39th out of 60 iirc which was one of our highest seedings to date, so were chuffed :) The two 1400 cars in front of us were very high spec so we were aiming to just try and keep our 3rd in class position and work our way up the main field position.

We were seeded just behind a newly built escort 2.0, who we proceeded to catch first stage and held us up for an age! Got passed him eventually and then caught some more traffic but got past this bunch quickly.
After the first stage we were second in class, beating a dog boxed/lsd ford puma by 3 seconds!
The stages were uneventful to be honest, we just slowly worked our way up the main field until we noticed the two top spec cars in my class at the side of the stage - they had both broken down, unlucky for them but great news for me!

At this point we were leading our class by a good margin, after stage 3 we were leading the class by 30 seconds!

We kept on flying along without issue, but on a later stage we passed a Peugeot 205 that was smoking a bit - I carried on as he pulled over but immediately saw flames coming from under the car and did feel a little guilty for not stopping! Luckily there were cars behind that stopped and helped him try to put it out but to no avail. Spectators said the rescue crews arrived quickly but as the car was pulled back into the pits we saw it had taken a lot of fire damage, poor bugger will have a big repair bill.

Luckily we made it to the end without major issue, starting the day on forest tyres and moving onto slicks as it cleared up.
Finished the day 1st in class with a 1min 2sec lead - not bad for what is a base spec car with a slightly tarted up engine!
And overall we were 16th out of 60 starters (48 finishers).

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This will be mine and Ryan's last rally for a while, I'm off to uni and all but stopping my job so I simply won't be able to afford to rally and also wont have the time to tinker/prepare the car :( If anyone wants to throw money at an 'up and coming driver' give me a PM haha....
 
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Huggy444
To Do List:
And this is the current to-do list, bearing in mind I'm off to uni and staying 3 hrs away from home (and the car) It's going to suck for me to find time to sort it all....
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Huggy444
Well, an update on the above list, the below has been rectified and I'm hoping to get out on the Hobida D'isis stages at MIRA in April :)

New rear solid engine mount.
M1155 pads in 100nx calipers (need bedding in yet).
Bled with mobul rf600 fluid.
Gone in for a full suspension geometry set-up to cure the diabolical alignment and camber I currently have.
New clutch and cable.
Welded the boot pins up.
Bent the underbody guards back into shape to give clearance.

Sent from my LG-H850 using Micra Sports Club mobile app
 
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Huggy444
Sooo

I lent my car to my university and I co-drived in my own car (weird feeling) and they've taken the car on to run, with me driving predominantly.

Entry for MIRA is in :)

Sadly, at the tour of caerwent, the car cut out and we had to defend - the cars first ever DNF :(

Seemingly no fuel getting to the engine, filter is fine, pump was new 6 mobths ago and a new relay recently as well. Odd, as it would stutter for a bit and then stop. When it stuttered the rev counter and speedo etc would cut out briefly and the EML light flash so I think there's a bigger fault at hand.

Anyway, now the cars back home it has decided it doesn't want to idle either so very very confused... Any help appreciated.

New engine mounts in as well, full polyurethane ones from Humberside as well as an oil and filter change, and coolant. Also new fancy race spec brake fluid and expensive brake pads :)


Messy updates atm. Apologies

Sent from my LG-H850 using Micra Sports Club mobile app
 

pollyp

Club Member
Sooo

I lent my car to my university and I co-drived in my own car (weird feeling) and they've taken the car on to run, with me driving predominantly.

Entry for MIRA is in :)

Sadly, at the tour of caerwent, the car cut out and we had to defend - the cars first ever DNF :(

Seemingly no fuel getting to the engine, filter is fine, pump was new 6 mobths ago and a new relay recently as well. Odd, as it would stutter for a bit and then stop. When it stuttered the rev counter and speedo etc would cut out briefly and the EML light flash so I think there's a bigger fault at hand.

Anyway, now the cars back home it has decided it doesn't want to idle either so very very confused... Any help appreciated.

New engine mounts in as well, full polyurethane ones from Humberside as well as an oil and filter change, and coolant. Also new fancy race spec brake fluid and expensive brake pads :)


Messy updates atm. Apologies

Sent from my LG-H850 using Micra Sports Club mobile app
the one time my kasandra did that while on the motorway (progressively worsening stutter, cd player shut off, my wideband beginning to show power-source error code, and tacho getting irratic, weak indicators, dead battery),
it was caused by a simple bad corroded alternator connector, draining the battery dead. the battery light never warned me.

cleaned the connection and twas all fine
 
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Huggy444
Don't beleive I'd have a dizzy coil? (coilpack engine).

Will check the coolant sensor stuff tomorrow, it's been at the garage with my mechanic having a look over it today/tonight so I'm hoping he might have solved it in my absence!

Sent from my LG-H850 using Micra Sports Club mobile app
 
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