K11 Immobiliser Problem

K11 Gazza

K11 Gazza



Hi Everyone
I have recently bought a 1996 N Reg Micra S 1.0 that i believe has an immobiliser problem :down:. I believe that it has the NATS version 2 installed in it as it has a red chip in the key itself. So my first question is, Is there any way of bypassing the immobiliser? and my second question is, Where is the immobiliser located?
Many Thanks for your replies
Gazza
 
hi gazza, its inside the ecu i,m afraid :doh:
you could fit an ecu/key/transponder combo from another nats2 k11 i believe
 
i've alredy replaced all the locks, the transponder and ecu and it still wudn't work so im thinkin of givin the non nats ecu idea a go
 
wen we got the car it wasnt running so we placed the injectors and spark plugs and that didn't make a difference, we then realised that the engine mangement light was blinkin wen the ignition was on and in the hand book it says that if the EML is blinkin wen the ignition is on then the immobiliser is faulty
 
Hi Gazza, I have had a recent problem with my NATS 2 ECU/immobiliser as my heater matrix leaked and went on the ECU causing damage. I replaced key, transponder and ECU but no luck whatsoever, but if you contact Ed im sure he can sell you an ECU to bypass the immobiliser as im doing so myself. Contact me if you need to know anything else

Craig
 
Im in exactly the same position as you mate! its costing me £150 but its just plug and play i.e. you taking existing ECU out and attach this one. Have you checked your passenger footwell for wetness? if so then its your heater matrix which has leaked and caused damage to the ECU. I had the EML come on and it indicating the immobiliser fault.
 
lol its a ##### been a student
may hav to think bout that option wen i get sum more money and i checked the floor nd it was all dry
 
Hmm maybe just a dodgy ECU then? Will let you know how I get on when I receive it next week anyway mate. Ive also got Tax, MOT and insurance next week *cries* haha
 
kennierobo fixed his nats problem with an ecu, trani and key, and he had a working set for sale iirc, try a pm to him eh
 
Are you sure Frank? im sure either him or someone on the forum pm'd me and told me that this swapping over failed for them? it failed for me too, so im not sure if you have to be lucky or something else was included in the conversion?
 
i changed all mine over and i still had the problem so i think im guna wait till i get sum more money and considering one of the ECUs from Ed
 
Haha tell me about it mate, i replaced everything I could think of before realising it was the ECU so bad times but mechanically its all good (when working). Will reply to you with pictures and comments when I receive it buddy :)
 
Scouse boy said:
Are you sure Frank? im sure either him or someone on the forum pm'd me and told me that this swapping over failed for them? it failed for me too, so im not sure if you have to be lucky or something else was included in the conversion?
Click to expand...

hmm, i,ll have a look, does,nt the light flash if there,s a sensor fault too tho ? and has anyone checked for faultcodes ?
 
Yeah it flashes, if you get a paper clip, open it up, and connect to 2 bottom left connectors (of the connector inside fusebox) together for 2 seconds... then release, it will flash. 1 long flash = 10, 1 short flash = 1

i was getting 14 long flashes then short 1 flash, then 14 long flashes then 3 short flashes = 141 and 143 = immobiliser fault. I think the codes are the net somewhere, I think I googled it :)
 
cheers craig (Y)
i was guna get the fault codes checked by somebody i no who has proper diagnostic equipment but they said they didn't hav and adaptor that wud fit a micra :glare: so i told them it dunt mata then
 
Mate! i got "rescued" by the RAC, I say rescued carefully as he towed me to a service station 0.5 miles away haha, anyway he didnt have the diagnostic equipment as my car was "too old" according to him and nearby garages coudlnt diagnose with their equipment. The paperclip trick saves the £45 fee which they was going to charge me and allows you to see what fault its showing.
 
Hmm sounds like you have a simila problem to me then dude, bad times all around... the thing which makes it so more painful is seeing saxo's, fiesta's and corsa's drive past as you walk to the bus stop, it should be them in our position haha!
 
K11 Gazza said:


Hi Everyone
I have recently bought a 1996 N Reg Micra S 1.0 that i believe has an immobiliser problem :down:. I believe that it has the NATS version 2 installed in it as it has a red chip in the key itself. So my first question is, Is there any way of bypassing the immobiliser? and my second question is, Where is the immobiliser located?
Many Thanks for your replies
Gazza
Click to expand...

Have you also fitted the Immobiliser Control Module as well as the ECM?
 
funny thing (nott) the garrage diagnostic machine (nissan 1) was also giving a nats fault and the engine check management light was flashing in the instrument cluster window But it was narrowed down to the mashed out ignition switch in my case since then (changed with a low mileage scrappys ign switch) i havent had a problem with it (thanks again mate)
 

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K11 Gazza said:
Whats the Immobiliser Control Module and where is it located mate ?
Click to expand...

Not sure where its located on a micra lad, try behind the glovebox, or below the centre console, that's where they are commonly located in most cars.

I had a problem with a starlet ECU and had to go back to the scrappy for the Immobiliser Control Module as the code for the Transponder in the keys controlled it! Mercs are the same, ECU Transponder key, and ICM (Working for a MB dealer I've seen enough problems with Sprinter ECU's to last me a lifetime, ####ers spiking the ECU cos they can't jump start a vehicle properly!)
 
k11micra said:
Frank,
looking at the wiring diagram on autodata, there is 1 feed wire to the ICM and 1 returning. Is it possible to put a 'link' in to bypass the ICM
Click to expand...

i would guess that that wire carries a "signal" to link with the ecu personally (?mhz maybe)
 
I tried swapping all the bits over today,& it dont work.I remembered after that we would need locksmith type person to plug in & do his thing to introduce new ECU to the car.Last summers NATs shennanigans memories came flooding back :)
Really need to ditch the unreliable system altogether if you're planning on keeping & modifying your car in case it stings us again.
Also wonder if the mods have triggered the problem,removed rev limiter,no cats,induction & being ragged everywhere?
 
K11 Gazza said:
Whats the Immobiliser Control Module and where is it located mate ?
Click to expand...

in a nats2 system on my 98 micra you have:
chipped key - contains the RFID key code

ignition barrel transponder sensor - detects the chipped key signal and sends to ecu

immobiliser control module - little black cylinder unit hidden nearby the fan blower within the corner cavity of the chassis between the front left wheelarch bulkhead and the door hinge region (remove dash & fan), contains the RFID reference code

NATS ecu - compares the chipped key RFID with the immobiliser control modules code (and maybe its own hidden code?) and only allows engine to run if they all match

so you'd have to swap over the matching keys, ecu and nats control module.
transponder is prob just a generic sensor
 
Thanks for that,good job the donor victim is still with us waiting for the gearbox to be removed.
I'll have a go tomorrow & report back...
 
Whipped the dash out of the donor this morning,found the control module beside heater motor no problem.Dash in my car was mostly out already (& its not going back in)Fitted the module...& the management light is flashing away as before & car wont start.
Remembered that the key man who looked at it last year plugged his machine in so maybe he has altered something...Spoke to local ECU guru who said it may need reprogramming..
Wished I'd known about NATS before I started the project,I've got a red 95 pre NATS shell around I could have used but too involved now to bail out..
 
Not wanting to jack the thread too much but im starting work on a non micra project using a 1999 CG10 lump and envisage having similar niggling problems with NATS.

Pollyp can probably answer this , are the various nats components arranged like top or bottom ?

zuo6tt.jpg


I have the abilities to monitor and replay various serial type datalines which will probably be my next avenue of research.
 
not certain how its actually wired but looking at photos of the loom i believe it's wired like the top diagram where the ecu is the central controller of the system

C725UZ (41)..JPG

in the 2nd diagram logically it would seem a waste to wire the transponder to go all the way left to the immobiliser unit then all the way back towards the ecu down the middle.
 
Thanks for the piccy Pollyp

I did a bit more digging and came across what appears to be some form of consult documentation

The immobilizer function of the NATS consists of the following:
l NATS ignition key
l Mechanical key (with Intelligent Key system)
l NATS antenna amp. located in the ignition key cylinder
l BCM
l Engine control module (ECM)
l Dongle unit (RHD models)
l Security indicator

NOTE:
The communication between ECM, BCM and/or Intelligent Key unit uses the CAN communication system.
Click to expand...

The use of the CAN bus basically means that the order of the different modules is irrelevant, they can all talk and listen on the same bus.

Now this appears that it might be for a K12 setup but all of it seems to infer that the BCM or Body Control Module is also involved in the NATS setup.

Is it possible that that is the missing part.. people are swapping the ECU, Barrel Transponder and the immobiliser control module (or dongle unit as its called above) but are overlooking the paired BCU module ?
 
Apparently the BCM is a unit that connects to most of the door ,bonnet and boot switches as well as the indicator and siren out. I dont have a K11 here so i cant tell if that a seperate unit on those models or an integral part of one of the other control units.
 
Ok,got it fixed today.Started first time after I fitted the complete ignition barrel.
I had assumed that the NATS system was similar to other cars.ie.Change ECU,ignition shroud & use donor key.
Not so,you need ECU,ignition barrel & associated key & the control module from behind heater motor.
If the NATS has kicked in on your car by far the easiest route to get it running would be to get a modified ECU from Ed on here.By the time you have trawled around in breakers yards looking for a secondhand system,stripped the donor,get robbed by the scrap man,dismantled your car,dash out & door cards off (if you want to keep your car on 1 key you'll need to change door/tailgate lock)and knock the security bolts off the column to change the ignition switch.After all that there's no guarantee how long the secondhand system you've fitted will last so you may have to go through it all again.I'm not too bothered as I'm going to save a spare system from one of our scrappers & I can fit complete in 10 mins as my car is stripped out but when I've finished my mods I want to get it mapped so may as well lose the unreliable immobiliser at the same time.
Still wonder if mods are causing problems with the system,ECU was designed for economical steady driving by nuns,not to have us doing everything humanly possible to milk every bit of power out of the car then thrashing the nuts off it...Went on some test runs today & had the management light flickering after ragging it hard.Must get a rev counter or put a distributor with a limiter fitted until I do...
Anyway,car works again so happy days
 
i didnt the first time i just used the ecu and engine loom but i hit lucky 2nd time around i had to as the two other plugs that joins the two halfs of loom togeather were not the same, its easy enough done as i said 1 days work no more nats problems, as for converting the loom to run from nats to none nats i couldnt hazard quess. with me it boiled down to money was i going to give nissan £120 to recode for a 2nd time or was i going to pay someone to convert the ecu and loom to bypass nats even more expensive than paying nissan or re loom the whole car get rid of it once and for all and pay no one I won lol.
 
Sounds like more and more people are having better luck with either removing or at least finding a way to revert their systems to non-NATS.

What interests me is how the individual components within the NATS system interact to form the chain of trust.

There does appear to be software available from different sources to "resync" the NATS capability. The latest versions of NISTUNE seem to have a NATS resync via the consult port :

24fy42g.jpg


Maybe this is an initegration of Horsham developments standalone NATS sync software :

http://www.h-dev.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1232&osCsid=d22d1d7684865a08cbbd4e15ac567db8

Also this product seems to have the ability to read the processor apparently used in the "Nissan NATS-5 PIN code reading for European models (Almera, Primera)" , might be another avenue for further investigation.

http://www.codecard.lt/immo/tms370-programmer/prod_27.html

I'd love to find a free and easy way for legitimate users to remove the shackles of the damn unreliable NATS system. At this point, If anyone can provide any highish res PCB scans of the internals of either the barrell transponder ring PCB or the Immobiliser unit PCB, this would be a fantastic step.

MrS
 

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